# Faculty Focus: The Graciousness of the World and a Life Well Lived April 05, 2023 ![John Brown and Charles Hallisey](/sites/g/files/omnuum5526/files/styles/hwp_16_9__480x270/public/hds2/files/ff-brown-hallisey-news-600x400.png?itok=JDPiDrCG) Professors John Brown and Charles Hallisey are co-faculty directors of "Making Change 2023: The Graciousness of the World and a Life Well Lived." *HDS professors John P. Brown and Charles Hallisey talk about why this summer’s Making Change Professional and Lifelong Learning program is a valuable experience for those looking to make an investment in themselves and gain a new perspective on the challenges they face.* Greetings everyone. I’m delighted to present a special bonus episode of *Faculty Focus*. Today’s guests are professors John Brown and [Charles Hallisey](https://hds.harvard.edu/people/charles-hallisey). John Brown is Practitioner in Residence in Religion, Business Ethics, and the Economic Order at Harvard Divinity School, and Charles Hallisey is the Yehan Numata Senior Lecturer on Buddhist Literatures at HDS. Together, they are the co-faculty directors of this summer’s professional and lifelong learning program at HDS, “[Making Change: The Graciousness of the World and a Life Well Lived](https://hds.harvard.edu/academics/professional-lifelong-learning).” Thanks for listening and joining us today. Let’s jump right into the interview. Harvard Divinity School · Faculty Focus: The Graciousness of the World and a Life Well Lived **Jonathan Beasley:** My first question is simply for this year's making change program, why did you choose the theme the graciousness of the world and in a life well lived? Why did you choose that theme? **Charles Hallisey:** The theme of a life well-lived emerged last year. That was part of the title of making change last year. And in terms of just going forward, the question's seeing, the very idea of “what is a well-lived life?” as an excellent starting point for reflection with others. That aspect of the theme of this year is making change first emerged. But it's an open line of inquiry of what contributes to a life well-lived. Last year, we began with really a statement of attributed to the Buddha that the whole of a life well-lived can be summarized as friendship between people us asking, what could that possibly mean? This year's theme of the graciousness of the world emerges out of a particular way. That very idea of what is it that makes it possible for human beings to make friends with each other. I don't think that anyone is taught how to make friends even though in different cultures, the rules of making friends are different, and so on. But people make friends with other people across cultures, across all kinds of other differences. And that possibility that human beings seem built to make friends seems part of this idea of the graciousness of the world. What is there in the world that makes good things possible for us that are given to us, and not something of our own creation? **John Brown:** I would add to that. The idea of wanting our participants to engage with texts— some religious, some spiritual, some secular—in ways that will create a deeper sense of their belonging to one another, to the world, to the planet, to their own ancestry, and our collective ancestry. And we are also particularly aware that we have such a finite period of time with them, that we have steered away from the knowledge-based, skill-based, traditions that go with executive education and continuing education. Because our desire is not only for learning to take place through multi-layered experiences during their time with us, but that we will reignite—and/or ignite—sparks within them that will last far into the future. We saw that last year. And very truthfully, last year was an opportunity for us to do learning as well. So, it was not just a one-way street between the teaching faculty, or between Charlie, and yours truly, and the students, it moved in both directions. And included, of course, our conversations with our guests, our special guest last year, who was Colin McCann, the author of the common read, *Apeirogon*. So graciousness to us is also one of those jewels one of those nuggets what Howard Thurman calls a sudden lift, that enables individuals, when they slow down, and reflect, even momentarily, to see not only more deeply, but more clearly. **Jonathan Beasley:** As I think about the word graciousness, I can't help but think about how timely that it feels in this moment in society, within the world right now. How top of mind was that for you both when you were developing the program for this summer? **Charles Hallisey:** Well, we are people of this time. So it has to be something of that inevitably. But I do think that it was self-consciously. So we were thinking about our present times as a time, where it's easy to not only note differences, but to build on differences into really ugly and self-destructive patterns of behavior. So it seems to be that we just come to it very easily. But it doesn't have to be that way. And then the idea well, how can it be otherwise? You say, well, there's things in the world, the graciousness of the world that shows us, that it's always ready at hand being different than our current times are. **John Brown:** I think Charlie said it well. I was listening to him just now, and thought about the graciousness, frankly, that I have felt in working with Charlie these last two years. Our process of developing the theme—both this year and last year—emerged from a great deal of conversation rather than going to the textbooks, or going to some other source. It was based largely, if not primarily, on discussions about ways to address some of the broader issues in society without labeling them, or targeting them, or making them the center of the conversations that will ensue in June. It wasn't that we wanted to avoid those subjects, but rather we wanted to dig deeper. We wanted to say, what are we missing? What can we discuss, read about, talk about, and revisit that will allow us to advance, not only the conversations, but what we think is a desire among the participants to grow in their relations—whether it's in a business setting, whether it's in a medical setting, whether it is just with their own relations. And so graciousness is something we landed on the more we had these discussions. **Jonathan Beasley:** Charlie, you had mentioned in a previous interview that we had, that you spoke actually quite personally, and deeply about one of the benefits for you in co-leading making change, that you've been able to grow closer with John, and to form a deep friendship. Was that something that either of you were surprised that had developed? Was that something that you were even thinking about going into this process? **John Brown:** I can say categorically, absolutely not. It didn't cross my mind. At least, not initially. And our styles are, I think, very different in terms of both our experiences, and our areas of intellectual interest, our approach to design. And the way those two worlds blended was just absolutely amazing. It certainly was not from a concerted design or effort, or framework, if you will. But we landed on our common interest in reading and exchanged multiple books. Charlie is extremely sensitive in terms of his relations. I come out of a business background. And so my writing tends to be very direct, very pointed, very at times, some would argue I suspect insensitive. In my efforts, just simply to get issues across. And in our co editing, I have enjoyed at least sharing my drafts with Charlie and watching impatiently return them with little softer language. And it's done with what has come to me and what has made me more aware of what I just said a moment ago, his deep sensitivity about human conditions and human relations. And so he's made me significantly more conscious of how communication, how language can serve as a bridge builder even when it's not the immediate objective. So how we came together, frankly, we've laughed about it in the past. We don't know. But I, for one, am grateful for these last two years that we've worked on this project has been. And I say this not because he's sitting next to me in this podcast interview, but it's been one of the most exciting personal and intellectual journeys I've been on throughout my career. **Charles Hallisey:** I can add that what John just said and took the words out of my mouth. So completely surprised by what's emerged between us connection. We are really different in all kinds of ways. But for me, that difference is only complimentary. Not anything that causes a friction or frustration, but is just simply complimentary. And John has a very keen eye, and he articulates what he sees very, very clearly. And some of the things that he says, they're pithy to the point. They're not insensitive, and they stick with me. And so when John said, the other day that I've been carrying around since he said it was, or we should never let ourselves be satisfied with good enough. And I said, that's right. That is too easy a temptation to just say, it's just good enough. Let's be with that. This is my whole experience with making change program, but particularly working together with John, and seeing the possibilities of what it could be. Our emerging from our conversations together. There's a Sri Lankan-Canadian author, poet Michael Ondaatje who has a poem that he wrote that's addressed to his teenage daughter, which mentally means a lot to me in terms of how my experience was my own daughter. But he has a line in it in which he says, "When I imagined a daughter, I never imagined this. But I like this better." And so when I would say, when I imagined doing stuff on Making Change, and then doing it together with John, I never imagined what has happened. I never imagined this. But I would say I like this better. And I think that's a lesson for the whole Making Change program. When we see problems, we have problems everywhere we turn. And when we try to imagine solutions, somehow, they're just not adequate. But if we find other ways of allowing say the graciousness of what happens between friends, between people that you're open to, the graciousness of the world, some other thing presents itself almost always. I like this better. And the big lesson is that it's never noisy, it's never something you say, here it is. It's small moments. The things that you're wearing attending to. You say, let's go in that direction now. **Jonathan Beasley:** It almost seems like what you're talking about in the connection that you two have made this lasting connection is almost poetic with a word that I have come across when learning about past Making Change participants, and how they view their experience. And that is one of forming lasting connections. And I think it's a beautiful thing that it's happened here with the two co-leaders as well. I wonder I want to stay on that idea of making a lasting connection with Making Change participants. How does that happen? How does the course, the readings, and texts, and all of the offerings, how does that enable lasting connection from the Making Change participants? **Charles Hallisey:** Truthfully, I don't know. All that I do know is that it happens. And it seems to happen very readily. Maybe the big lesson is I have to let it happen. I have to get out of the ways sometimes so it can happen. And this idea of the graciousness of the world is part of that graciousness is that it does happen that people make connections in ways that oftentimes, the most powerful ones are the ones that you're surprised by. And that that's one of the things that I think for the participants last year, John and I, last year continuing like constantly astonished by things that. You say, I had no idea. And that I think also is where you allow someone to be larger than you imagine them to be when you first meet them. Readings other communities, other persons, and so on. You say, in their openness to the possibilities that are in front of you that I think is the key thing about the whole program of making change. **John Brown:** One of the lessons I learned from Charlie last year was a simple phrase, less is more. When we were designing the four and a half to five days, there was a point at which we were thinking about adding another conversation, another presentation, another block of time in which the participants would be engaged with either facilitator or themselves. And Charlie shared that in just a very almost offhanded way. But it came to mean a great deal in that the way I received it is we can step away from feeling that we have to control every waking moment that the participants are with us. And it was almost as if graciousness was a part of last year. We had to give the participants, and ourselves, room for graciousness to grow. And you can't do that, at least, we don't think we can do it, when there is such a fixed routine established that students don't have, and participants don't have time to reflect, don't have time to step away, and to allow the experience to move within them. Another term Charlie has used this year in the context of graciousness is afterglow. And by stepping away, as I mentioned a moment ago, that afterglow could shine on the groups and individuals without Charlie or John Brown stepping in the way. And I think that's what would have happened if we had added one more event, or one more activity, or even if we had added five more individuals. The mix, the number, the ambience, all those things helped to work together to bring about what Charlie just described. **Jonathan Beasley:** I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that you're both MDiv of graduates of Harvard Divinity School. Why did you both decide to get MDivs, and why did you decide to come here at HDS? You both very different backgrounds. So even though you were not here at the same time, how did you end up at the same place pursuing the same degree? **Charles Hallisey:** I would say that John had been doing things in the business world, and came back, and went to school. I was on my way to doing something, and I just had a detour or a stop before I did that either. And so there's a way in which my own story might be I did it before and John did it after. But I think that when we talk about it together, both of us value what happened to us. We had very perhaps different self understandings about what we were doing. I would frankly say I was just confused. But I was surprised. And in terms of looking back some of the things that I said, I got during the three years in the MDiv, as time goes by, I value more and more. And part of what John and I do in terms of the making change program sometimes in our discussions, I would say, what we're trying to do is to distill what we value the most out of the MDiv program. And say, can we put it in this Making Change program? And that's not only for the sake of the making change program, it's for the sake of Harvard Divinity School, at large, to say, this looking back, this is something we really value. We wanted to give it to the future. And I think a lot of the university faculty union in Sri Lanka that I know a lot of people, who are part of it, they had this beautiful slogan one time when they were on strike. Let's turn our inheritance into our legacy. And so one of the things that the MDiv gave me things. It was an inheritance that I didn't deserve. And that part of Making Change is to say I want to make it part of a legacy for other people to benefit from what was given to me so freely, and in ways that I didn't imagine when I came here. **John Brown:** Something Charlie mentioned about my journey here that I would just simply underscore. I am a strong proponent that students, especially in the MDiv program, should work for some brief period of time before coming here. I think that the MDiv is much more than an intellectual journey, that for those who are interested in academic careers, it may be less important. Probably is. But for those who see themselves as engaging whether it's in the non-profit world, or for profit world, there are lessons that just simply cannot be taught in the classroom. They can't be taught in the classroom across the river at Harvard Business School. They have to be not only learned and experienced, they have to be ingrained in ways that allow students to understand themselves in relationship to the world in a non-intellectual sense in order to optimize the offerings, the opportunities, not just here at the Divinity School, but at this wonderful University. So for me, I am for lack of a better expression, eternally grateful that there was some separation between my MBA and coming here to the MDiv program, I think. Just that 11-year distance enriched my time at Harvard Divinity School in ways that I probably could not have imagined earlier, but that I wouldn't trade for the world. Why here? Truthfully, because I was comfortable with the University. I had come as an MBA student, and I knew the terrain, if you will, of the general Boston area. I wanted to travel inside the world of faith traditions. And did not believe I could do it on my own. I wanted the guidance that scholars like Charlie and others could help me through understanding the texts in my tradition, which is Christianity. The new and the Old Testament. I couldn't do that in a way that would do justice either, in my view, to the material or my desires by doing it independently, or doing it sporadically, and episodically. So the encouragement to come here was rooted in my relationship with my father, who thought that this would be an excellent place for me to land for two to three years, and he could not have been more right. **Jonathan Beasley:** Professor Brown when you were speaking, you were mentioning the differences between Harvard Business School and Harvard Divinity School. You have a foot in both of those worlds, and so I’m wondering if you could talk a bit about the experience for Making Change participants, especially in the classroom, in the conversations, and in the teaching. What is the experience like? What can program participants expect? **John Brown:** I think, again, I would have to give a nod to Dean Hempton, whose invitation to me to come here, was predicated in part on the fact that I did have a foot in both worlds. And his desire to embrace the larger desire of One Harvard, and how we can institutionally remain true to our own mission purpose and vision. But at the same time, invite conversations, and even shared experiences that can enhance our respective mission, visions, and objectives. So in the case of making change, one of the differences this year is that our faculty will include Derek van Bever, and his teaching approach of using a case to engage students to put them in the situation of decision makers, understanding the nuances challenges, pitfalls, and options that can accrue when one has to be the decision maker is a way for them to see that the graciousness is not something that's confined to an esoteric conversation, but that it can be inserted into approaches that managers, leaders take in solving immediate tangible problems in areas of interest. And so the business school pedagogy, if you will, is really about solving problems. It's about moving resources, people, capital in a direction to achieve a particular end. And based on both the experiences we encountered during the five days last year, and the subsequent meetings that we've had with participants in the period since then, most of them are very interested in problem solving, and realize that in this eclectic world in which we live, no one discipline or tradition has a lock on options and opportunities to be effective in solving problems. And so the earlier you asked about what we hope participants to gain from, participating during the five days, and one of them is to look at the world around them, and themselves, and see possibilities that otherwise would not have come to them, resources. And those resources could be some of the material would cover, or the resources could be one another. That if we help just one participant move outside her, or his, or their immediate comfort zone, to embrace and an idea concept, or have the courage just simply to try something different, that's a measure. It's a metric, if you will, it's an index of what we hope is an indication of meeting the needs and objectives of Making Change. **Jonathan Beasley:** Wow. Professor John Brown, Professor Charlie Hallisey, great speaking with you. **Charles Hallisey:** Thank you. **John Brown:** Thank you, Jonathan. **Jonathan Beasley:** I hope you enjoyed this special bonus episode of Faculty Focus as much as I enjoyed my conversation with Professors John Brown and Charles Hallisey and hearing about why this summer’s Making Change program is such a valuable experience to those looking to get a new perspective on the challenges they face, to establish long-lasting connections with others, and to make an investment in themselves. For more information or to apply to Making Change, find a link in [this episode’s show notes](https://hds.harvard.edu/academics/professional-lifelong-learning) or visit the HDS website. Until next time… See also:- [ Faculty Focus ](/topic-tags/faculty-focus)