# Video: An Evening with Twinkie Clark April 22, 2024 ![Twinkie Clark and Damien Sneed](/sites/g/files/omnuum5526/files/styles/hwp_16_9__480x270/public/hds2/files/twinkie-clark-news-thumb-900.jpg?itok=_iPYr6rl) Twinkie Clark and Damien Sneed performing at Harvard Divinity School on April 10, 2024. / Photo: Osa Igiede Harvard Divinity School recently hosted Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award recipient and legendary gospel artist Twinkie Clark, who talked about her musical journey and performed from her catalog of over 350 songs. Scholars [Charrise Barron](https://music.fas.harvard.edu/people/charrise-barron), Assistant Professor of Music at Harvard University, and [Damien Sneed](https://profiles.howard.edu/damien-sneed), Associate Professor in the Department of Music at Howard University, facilitated the conversation with Clark, which illuminated the motivations and milestones of her music career and explored key elements of her signature sound. The evening culminated in a recital in which Clark, a Hammond Organ Hall of Fame member, performed on the Hammond B-3 organ. ![Twinkie Clark](/sites/g/files/omnuum5526/files/styles/hwp_1_1__960x960_scale/public/hds2/files/twinkie-clark-inline-750.jpg?itok=CZHMH2_d) *Twinkie Clark performing "Going to Heaven to Meet the King" and "My Mind Is Made Up." / Photo: Osa Igiede* Often called the "Mother of Contemporary Gospel Music," Clark is an award-winning gospel singer, songwriter, composer, record producer, musician, and evangelist. She is the chief executive writer and member of the American gospel singing group the Clark Sisters. In 2010, NPR named her one of the 50 Great Voices. ## Watch the full event below. Full transcript: \[AUDIO LOGO\] ANNOUNCER: Harvard Divinity School. ANNOUNCER: An Evening with Twinkie Clark. April 10th, 2024. ![Teddy Hickman-Maynard](/sites/g/files/omnuum5526/files/styles/hwp_1_1__960x960_scale/public/hds2/files/teddy-hickman-maynard-inline-750.jpg?itok=HeAUt5Xe) *Teddy Hickman-Maynard, associate dean for ministry studies at Harvard Divinity School, delivered opening remarks. / Photo: Osa Igiede*TEDDY HICKMAN-MAYNARD: Good evening, everybody. My name is Teddy Hickman-Maynard. I am an associate Dean for Ministry Studies here at Harvard Divinity School. On behalf of everyone here at Harvard Divinity School, we welcome you for this wonderful event, An Evening with Twinkie Clark, a conversation and recital. A few preliminaries before we get going, I want to let everyone know that this recital and conversation is being professionally recorded. We are live streamed. We have professional photography. And so we are asking that you all refrain from taking your own so that you won't interrupt and interfere with the professional photography. Can I get an amen? AUDIENCE: Amen TEDDY HICKMAN-MAYNARD: All right now. We're watching. OK. Second, a few acknowledgments. First, we acknowledge that Harvard University is located on the traditional and ancestral land of the Massachusett, the original inhabitants of what is now known as Boston and Cambridge. We pay respect to the people of the Massachusett tribe, past and present, and honor the land itself, which remains sacred to the Massachusett people. If you would like to learn more about Harvard's relationship and ongoing conversation with the Massachusett tribe and the ongoing work of reparations that we are engaged in, you can go to the Harvard University Native American program, hunap.harvard.edu. We also acknowledge, pay honor, and respect to the more than 70 individuals who were enslaved and worked and labored on this campus. We also acknowledge Harvard's legacy of supporting the demonic institution of slavery through financial and intellectual production. If you would like to learn more about Harvard and our legacy with regard to our support of and ongoing relationship with slavery, you can go to legacyofslavery.harvard.edu to find out more about this history, but also to find out what we are committing ourselves to in terms of reparative action. With that. It is my honor and privilege to introduce the person who brought this all together tonight. A dear friend who I met-- I'm not going to say how many years ago, as we were undergrads running around this campus. It is my honor to present to you the Reverend Dr. Charrise Barron. Charrise. Dr. Barron. Dr. Barron is an assistant professor in the Department of Music at Harvard University. She is an ethnomusicologist and historian of African-American religious culture. She earned her PhD from Harvard University in African and African-American studies. Her current book project is called The Platinum Age of Gospel, and it explores contemporary gospel music and illuminates the marked shifts away from previous eras of gospel performance and culture, which have defined the last 30 years of the genre. She is also developing a separate manuscript examining intersections of Black sacred music and protest in the Black Lives Matter movement. Dr. Barron is an ordained Baptist minister and has served in ministry at churches across the United States and in London, England. As a composer and lyricist, she most recently composed the music and lyrics for the play The Lawsons, A Civil Rights Love Story, which celebrates the life and love story of Black civil rights activist and Pastor William Bill Lawson and his wife, Audrey Lawson. The play premiered at Houston's Ensemble Theater in 2002. Won't you please put your hands together for the Reverend Dr. Charrise Barron? \[APPLAUSE\] We are also so honored to welcome with us an esteemed scholar who has come to help and organize this conversation and to gift us with his own musical talents. And that is Dr. Damien Sneed. Dr. Damien, won't you stand up let the people see you? Dr. Damien Sneed is associate professor at Howard University. He is a multi-instrumentalist, a composer, a conductor, an arranger, a producer whose work spans R&B, classical, jazz, gospel, and pop. His honors include a Dove Award and an NAACP Image Award. He has directed music for the Clark Sisters and many more renowned artists. We invite you to look up Dr. Sneed's discography and to enjoy his music, and we are so grateful that you are here with us. Thank you so much, Dr. Damien Sneed. \[APPLAUSE\] And now it's my distinguished privilege to present the person we are all here for. She is the leader of the American gospel singer group, the Clark Sisters. She is the big sister of Jacky, Denise, Dorinda, and Karen. She is the mother of contemporary gospel music. She is the queen of the Hammond B3 organ. She is a member of the Hammond Organ Hall of Fame. She is an award winner of Grammy's, Grammy Lifetime, Dove, and BMI, Stellar, Soul Train, Black Image, The James Cleveland Lifetime Achievement Award, Black Music and Entertainment Walk of Fame. She is. Pastor Elbert Clark's daughter. She is Dr. Maddy Moss Clark's baby. She is a singer, songwriter, producer, arranger, musician, music educator, and evangelist. She is the composer of over 350 songs. She is Dr. Elbernita Twinkie Clark. Somebody put your hands together and give a great Harvard welcome to Twinkie Clark. \[CHEERING\] TWINKIE CLARK: Thank you, Dean. I thought the Dean was going to preach there for a minute. I was kind of feeling something. Now, I got to live up to all that. But thank you. Thank you so much. Hi, everybody. Praise the Lord. First of all, I want to thank-- and Damien and Charrise can let me know if I'm out of order with this. I want to thank them for the opportunity of coming to Harvard University. This is my first time, and I'm the only Clark sister here. So I'm excited. I realize the value of the education that's given here and all the prestigious people that have studied here. And I'm really excited to be sitting in front of, I think, students. Probably more than that, right? So I'm very, very honored and privileged. And I thank Damien and Charrise, especially because I'm the only sister. I got something over them, you know. So it's indeed a privilege. And I want to also thank my assistant, who helps me get around. Connie Yates, wave your hand or stand if you want to. Thank you, Connie. She helps me get around. If she wasn't here, I'd be struggling and straining. So I'm excited. I'm excited. I just want to share with you about the ministry of music, how I was taught and trained. And the first song I'm going to play is influenced by my mother, the late Dr. Maddy Moss Clark. Have you heard of her? Yeah, she's my greatest influence. And she wrote a song called Going to Heaven to Meet The King. And then I'm going to go into a real old Clark Sisters song, My Mind is Made Up. This is kind of old, traditional style. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] Come on. Pat your feet. Some y'all might like that old-time stuff. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] Oh, I hear somebody Cogic it. My mind is made up. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] I hear some of y'all singing. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] I'll take you back a little. If my sisters were here, they would say this. (SINGING) Going home. Yes, I'm going home. Going home. Yes, I'm going home. Going home. Yes, I'm going home. (SPEAKING) Bring it on. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] \[APPLAUSE\] CHARRISE BARRON: All right. It is indeed my honor to be here and to witness this historic moment of Twinkie Clark at Harvard University. Yes, indeed. So I actually have a lot of students from my gospel music class and my grad course. If you're from one of my classes, can you just wave your hands so Dr. Clark can see you? Yes. Yes. All right. And so, you know, you all had an assignment in my gospel class to take a picture while you're here, so this is a good opportunity to do that if you haven't done it already. If you haven't done it already. And then we'll get back to the rules that Dean Hickman Maynard put in place. They need it for a grade. They need it for a grade. Thank you. I got dispensation. All right. All right. It is just not only an honor to be here with Twinkie Clark but also with my friend and colleague, Damien Sneed, who is also just an amazing force in the world. And you all have a special connection and bond. Can you talk a little bit about the work that you have done together? TWINKIE CLARK: Well, I met Damien at Howard University when I was studying there, and we just kind of talked about our backgrounds, and later on we found out that, you know, I was related to the Clark Sisters, and my mom, the late Dr. Maddy Moss Clark, was my teacher and trainer. And even though Damien finished, I didn't finish, which I regret that I didn't because I could have gained so much more knowledge and creativity. And then, as time went along, Damien and I had ended up performing on the same concert and musical church, all of it. And he later on started doing work with my sister, Karen Clark Sheard. And y'all heard her? And I'll let him tell you the rest. I think that's where it began. And then Karen made the connection of him working with the Clark Sisters. DAMIEN SNEED: Yes, I first met Twinkie Clark as a student at Howard University, and Dorinda and Karen. They all came during my time there. And actually had never heard of the Clark Sisters before. So I had a lot of catching up to do. And she introduced me to her sisters. We prayed together. We performed at the White House together for President Clinton and had an opportunity to really glean a lot and learn from her. And what's interesting, when I was working with some friends at Yale university-- I see there's some YDS, Yale Divinity School alum out there, I had an opportunity to meet my friend Dr. Charrise Barron. And you all won't believe this, but Dr. Barron and Twinkie Clark have actually worked together and performed together with my choral group Chorale Chateau with Wynton Marsalis and the late Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor for an event at the Kennedy Center, Jazz and Democracy, for President Obama's inauguration. And they both were in the choir. And that says a lot about Twinkie Clark, that she was at that time a Grammy Award-winning artist. But she took the time to sing in a chorus with singers and came to New York City. Took care for her own travel and hotel and rehearsed with us to perform with us. Twinkie and Dr. Barron were both in the alto section for that concert. So it just shows the level of humility for such a great artist who just won Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award and also for Dr. Barron, who is, I think, one of our world's greatest scholars and a brilliant individual who also plays organ, piano, writes music, undergrad from Harvard, computer science. So I'm just honored to be here with these wonderful queens. CHARRISE BARRON: Amen to Queens. TWINKIE CLARK: All right. CHARRISE BARRON: Let me just say, too, I have had the blessing or the challenge of interacting with a lot of famous people. And I will say these two folks are some of the most kind, caring, sociable artists that you would meet. And so, Twinkie, is it OK if I call you Twinkie? TWINKIE CLARK: That's fine. CHARRISE BARRON: OK. Can you say a little bit about your spiritual practice and your spiritual formation? Now, y'all know, as was already said, I'm an ordained baptist, but I grew up holiness. TWINKIE CLARK: All right. CHARRISE BARRON: Holiness, without \[INAUDIBLE\]. Shall see the Lord. And I know you come out of a tradition that holds to holiness as well. Can you just talk about your spiritual practice? What makes Twinkie Twinkie in terms of how you see people and the world and God? TWINKIE CLARK: Well, I like being around people that love the Lord and enjoy being in the presence of God. And I, like you, I think were raised with in a strict background. CHARRISE BARRON: Oh, yes TWINKIE CLARK: My mother, she didn't believe in wearing pants. And we like, What? Now, look, this is a new day now. She didn't believe in wearing pants, and my sisters would be sneaking and doing it. So thank God we finally got past that age. And she also didn't believe that you could really be effective as a singer or a musician or a writer if you didn't have a spiritual life. And I remember the time we were getting ready to go on stage, and, you know, we was getting ready to come out of our dressing rooms like, All right, we go tear the house down. And Mama stopped us, and she said, Where y'all think y'all going? Get back in this dressing room and have prayer. And not one time out of all the places we've been, even overseas, we have carried on that rule or strictness that she had put in us. And I can remember the times when my dad had us go to Bible study, and we would be complaining that we had homework, and Daddy would say, Y'all bring your homework. Bring your homework to Bible study. I know y'all got to go to school. Bring your homework to Bible study. So because of that teaching and that training and putting God first in what you do, and also you can't live any kind of life. You know, you can't call yourself being a choir director and smoking weed. CHARRISE BARRON: Oh-Oh. Oh-Oh. Oh-Oh. That's a little controversial. That's a little-- TWINKIE CLARK: I think I'd better stop right there, you know. You know, so some people do though. CHARRISE BARRON: Holiness, Holy Ghost. TWINKIE CLARK: And maybe Charrise could help me with that. But some people are so gifted that-- they're so gifted. They're good at it until,-- the people will still go up. It may not be the right spirit, but people would get emotional. So we were taught we couldn't do that. We couldn't do that. And also, if you want to have the anointing in your writing and in your ministry of music, then you have to have a prayer life. And I think my most precious thing about being a minister of music is, Charrise, that I do take out time to consecrate myself. I'll go on the fast, and I'll do lots of Bible study. And when I get ready to write a song, then I usually go on a fast and ask God to anoint what he's given me. CHARRISE BARRON: Isn't that amazing? Isn't that amazing? Let me just say, for the students in my gospel music class, we have spent a lot of time talking about Black gospel music culture. And we say we can't really talk about the culture without talking about the theology that grounds a lot of gospel music. And a lot of it is driven by artists like yourself, who-- or at least a big chunk of it, is driven by this the theology around the anointing. So it's great to actually hear you talk about it with unprompted. And I also want to say, too, that what's so amazing about your practice of prayer and fasting to create the music, it reminds me of the work of iconographers. These are people who create the imagery. They create images that are used in worship in some Christian traditions. And those iconography also have a practice of prayer and fasting. It's not just getting up and drawing whatever you want to draw, but there's a process and a ritual that is around that that is built around the spirituality and spiritual practice. And so it's awesome for me to hear you talk about it-- to talk about the creation of your music being this kind of spiritual work. And, and I think you would say that it shows why your work has such longevity. Would you say that? DAMIEN SNEED: Yes. I have a question for you. In settings like this, people deal with the intersectionality of sacred and secular. I like to call it the confluence of musical styles. Can you talk to us and share-- We know your mother was a huge influence on you. But can you talk about what happened when you were a student at Howard University? Particularly about Professor Emeritus, Dr. Norris, and how that was a time-- you know, there were some students there that you can mention, like Donny Hathaway and Roberta Flack, who you wanted to go there because they were producing a sound. People like Stevie Wonder, Aretha Franklin in Detroit, the Motown sound, but even classical music. Richard Smallwood, who graduated from Howard, is known for his confluence of classical, particularly the Baroque style and early classical period in Western music history. The blend-- the mixture of presenting worship to God through music with that sound. But you actually cover classical. You cover jazz, R&B, hip-hop, but yet you and your sisters have been challenged because people can't accept the confluence of the intersectionality of both sacred and secular. So could you talk about that and Howard University and the University universal thought and how that influenced you? TWINKIE CLARK: Well, at first, when the Lord would give me songs, it would be just your basic, simple melody, and your style was just traditional. But with me going to Howard University, my style began to develop, and I started mixing, as you said, all those different styles in the gospel, and that wasn't done much in gospel music. And maybe you and Charrise might hit on it later, but there are a lot of different writers that came before my time, and they weren't mixing a lot of classical with gospel. And the name you mentioned, Richard Smallwood, was one of those that the most-- not the most powerful, but one of the most powerful writers that had that articulation in mixing classical and gospel. You have to be creative to do it with meaning and effectiveness. Some people try to mix classical with gospel and don't work. It sound like junk. So. You have to really be polished and professional at bringing the two styles together. So, like Damien said, gospel has gone to a whole different level now. People listen to gospel that never listened to gospel before all over the world, I mean, even Harvard University. Yeah, there was a time Gospel music was just nothing. You know, you could see on the awards-- the big awards show Gospel was already played down. But we're in a new era now. So, yes, Damien, mixing all those styles together takes gospel to a whole different level. And it reaches more people and it reaches a wider audience. CHARRISE BARRON: Speaking of wider audience and award shows, can we talk a little bit about You Brought The Sunshine? Which was the classic hit that you wrote that crossed over just in amazing ways. And I think helped to take you around the world if you weren't already going around the world. Took you to the Grammys. All those sorts of performing on the Grammys stage. Can you talk a little bit about your inspiration in writing that song? TWINKIE CLARK: Well, it was inspired through-- and I have to be careful when I say his name. I know I'm being recorded. But Stevie Wonder-- he wrote Master Blaster. And he came up with doom, doom, doom. Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom, doom. And I said, Hmm, nobody ever done that in gospel before. So I said, Hmm, I'm going to try to put some reggae in gospel. And the baseline came to me. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. So it worked. CHARRISE BARRON: Yes, it did. That's an understatement. It worked. Understatement of the day. TWINKIE CLARK: And Charrise, I'm glad you asked that question because we got a lot of feedback. Them pastors-- they say, Y'all, that music is unholy and you can't do it in my church. Don't come in here talking about some you brought the sunshine. CHARRISE BARRON: And what did you say to that? Oh, don't tell us if it's too spicy. TWINKIE CLARK: Well, I wanted Charrise to continue with that subject, but we got a lot of feedback because it was being played in the clubs. I was waiting on you to say that. CHARRISE BARRON: Absolutely. TWINKIE CLARK: And it was being played in the bars. And it crossed over on the secular stations. And we got lots of feedback from the church. They said that we were unholy, our music was not anointed. It was of the devil. CHARRISE BARRON: Yes. And even your mother got some criticism for performing with you on the Grammys as well. But that was really groundbreaking when you all did that in '83, singing Hallelujah. TWINKIE CLARK: Yes, ma'am. CHARRISE BARRON: Yes, indeed. And now we've come to a new age where it's totally acceptable. Would you say that? Would you agree with that? So you were really pioneering-- really breaking down barriers in your music. Did you ever hear from Stevie Wonder about that song? Did he ever say anything to you about it? TWINKIE CLARK: Stevie was impressed. I'm being recorded. He walked up to me one time, Charrise, at a concert and. I said, Steve, you give me so much inspiration. And all he said to me-- I went up to speak to him and all he did was, You brought the sunshine and walked away. You know, I wanted to meet him and talk to him and tell him that, you know, you inspired me, and he just walked away. CHARRISE BARRON: Oh, my word. TWINKIE CLARK: So I never got the chance to do anything with him. No work, no song. So, I don't know. It's been over 33 years. I've been trying to do some work with him. So I guess before I get too old or before one of us die. CHARRISE BARRON: Lord forbid. Lord forbid. TWINKIE CLARK: Yeah, but I am praying that it happens. CHARRISE BARRON: OK. All right. Well, this is being recorded. We're putting it out there. Hey. Hey. DAMIEN SNEED: Twinkie, as an instrumentalist, I first came to know you by listening to you play. You are truly a multi-instrumentalist. I like to call you a model gene. There's no one like you. Not only do you write like no one else in the Earth. The way that you're able to arrange, interpret, bring inside of a spiritual core, and then extrapolate pen to paper and to recording with music because I know that you had to listen to Freddie Mercury and Queen. Bohemian Rhapsody and Now is the Time have some similar-- TWINKIE CLARK: That's right. DAMIEN SNEED: Yeah, I hear that. So I have a question for you. You actually are a pianist. The recording you did with Ben Tankard, A Mighty Fortress is Our God-- your arpeggios are technically perfect. You're playing with nails, which they say classical musicians can't play a grand piano or Steinway. But you did that in South Africa, playing Great is thy Faithfulness on the piano. Your arpeggios, your chords, the voicings, the evenness, whether it's Czerny or Hanen, whether you did any of that, it's even. Then you were using an instrument that was the beacon of technological innovation, the Yamaha DX7 that all musicians were using. You use that on a lot of the Clark Sisters recordings, but then the Hammond B3 organ, which is an instrument by Laurens Hammond in itself. You really know how to create sounds. That's why the rumors I found out are true, that during convocations they would keep two to three Leslie 122 speakers lined up because the way that you set the drawbars and the way you usually use all 10 fingers is when you're playing the Hammond organ, and the transistors, the vacuum tubes, or whatever have not been able to always capture and hold with integrity the sound of heaven that you download from heaven into the Earth through the keys, which evokes deliverance and and worship. But even with the song Jesus is a Love Song-- when you sing it as a soloist-- Karen Clark Sheard recording produced by Donald Lawrence-- the great Donald Lawrence. Finally, Karen, when it was time for your solo-- we have all seen the video a million times. You didn't want to sing the solo. You wanted Karen to sing it. You kept saying, You sing it. So you didn't have time to think. You took a catch breath. For those who understand vocal production and the diaphragm, you said, Could it be. And then you ended that melisma or the riff or the run like a violinist with their bow at the frog of the violin set. And you brought it down like this in a moment. You have all of this orchestral gravitas in your palette, in your expression, in your tablets that God gave you. My question is, when I think about Jesus is a Love Song, when I think about, For the Love of the People, the piano intro-- Da da, all of that. When I think about Except What God Allows, what's your inspiration for your modal interchange? If I come from a theoretical background, musically. So beautifully in your compositions, you're able to shift between b-flat major and B minor, and you don't just do regular modulations, but you're able to do it modally, and you really are composing like Brahms or like Stravinsky or like Strauss right there at whatever instrument you're at, or even as a vocalist. How do you do that? Nobody does that, right? I hope I said it correctly. Please, inquiring minds want to know how do you do that. So well on every instrument. You accompany yourself like it's two people playing. The pedals are always moving separate, like high place. They're not moving with the left hand and the right hand. You did the arpeggio up together synchronously, and then you let the left hand go slower. So you get into the right voicing. How do you do all that? TWINKIE CLARK: That's hard. Well, first of all, the training I had, I'm not as professional as Damien is as far as classical. The training she gave me was that I had to play hymns. And I said, Mama, I won't do no hymns. That's boring. She said, Everybody don't like loud, driving, hard music. You've got to learn some hymns. And I started taking classical piano lessons. And I stopped. I just got lazy. So as time went along with the teaching that I got at Howard University, I said, I'm going to try to mix the classical with gospel. And it seems when I started doing it, I got inspired to do these different chord changes and changing keys and learning how to execute on the organ, the bassline, the arpeggios-- DAMIEN SNEED: Show us. TWINKIE CLARK: The arpeggios and all those other terms that you said. OK, he told me to show you. All right, let's see which one I'm going to play. I'll do The High Place. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] When he said arpeggio, that's what it is. Now, Damien is more of a perfectionist at all those terms he said and doing things like. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] And some gospel music musicians don't like all that. But I love it. I love it because, like he said, it takes you to a whole different dimension of music. So I may not be as polished as he is in the ability to execute in different terms, but to mix it all in there together and knowing just how much to put in it. Now, sometimes you can overdo it, you know what I mean? So he's better at it. But I do it when we-- I ain't supposed to say all this, but anyway. When we have Holy Convocation and all the churches come together, we were taught to not only do the hard gospel-- the churchy sound. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] So then you have to, like they say, shift and change. You can't be doing no classical stuff with all that now. You totally killed the spirit. CHARRISE BARRON: That was just amazing. That was just amazing. Amazing. TWINKIE CLARK: Thank you. CHARRISE BARRON: All right. So you mentioned convocation, and so we know or many of us in this room that you're part of the Church of God in Christ, which-- we got some other Church of God in Christ folks in the room, also known as Cogic. And Cogic, or the Church of God in Christ, has been an incubator of gospel music. It has been a preserver of gospel music that goes back to the music of people who were enslaved. I mean, even the music that you just played, which we think of as congregational music, right? All of that basically was coming from the early spirituals-- the folk spirituals. But also, you all have done so much for gospel music, but you yourself have been called-- I've heard you called the mother of the Cogic sound. TWINKIE CLARK: Praise God. CHARRISE BARRON: And I would love to hear you talk about what you see as your impact or your legacy in terms of the Cogic sound and what is the Cogic sound. How would you describe the Cogic sound, your sound, and what you did for Cogic? And this is your chance to toot your own horn. TWINKIE CLARK: OK. OK. Like she said, the congregational songs-- that's where it starts. Well, I just played one with the beat, but I'll do one. I'm going to start simple, OK? So don't get bored with me. CHARRISE BARRON: Not possible. It's not possible. TWINKIE CLARK: So my dad used to do-- he used to do songs like this. And I would say, Daddy, don't-- that's so boring. Will you stop doing them simple songs? And he would do-- \[MUSIC PLAYING\] (SINGING) Bless that wonderful name of Jesus Oh, bless that wonderful name of Jesus Bless that wonderful name of Jesus No other name I know (SPEAKING) And then he might switch over and say, (SINGING) Have you tried Jesus? He's all right Have you tried Jesus? He's all right Have you tried Jesus? He's all right Have you tried Jesus He's all right (SPEAKING) And then he might switch and say, (SINGING) I'm a soldier in the army of the Lord I'm a soldier in the army I'm a soldier in the army of the Lord I'm a soldier in the army (SPEAKING) And then at our church of God in Christ conventions-- That beat right there-- the mothers would step out. That's slow enough for the mothers to do that little step. And we do it a lot at convocation. And then the folks that don't like that slow beat, they pick it up. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] Should I do it slow? Should I show them how they slow it down? DAMIEN SNEED: Yeah, show us how they slow it down. TWINKIE CLARK: OK. DAMIEN SNEED: When they're ready for them to stop dancing. CHARRISE BARRON: Oh, yes. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] \[SINGING\] DAMIEN SNEED: And while you're there, show us how they'll like tune up when you told me your mother would show you how to roll the bass like someone's preaching. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] Exhort it. Exhort a little bit. TWINKIE CLARK (SINGING): Amazing grace. How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me I once was lost, but now I'm found Anybody in here has the Lord been good to you Say yeah, yeah, yeah, CHARRISE BARRON: We have \[INAUDIBLE\]. DAMIEN SNEED: Woo. Woo. CHARRISE BARRON: Preacher Twinkie. Singer Twinkie. Preacher Twinkie. Singer preacher. Preacher singer. Can you talk just a little bit about the preacher leanness in your singing? Especially talk about the growl. DAMIEN SNEED: The growl. Yes. CHARRISE BARRON: Which a lot of the young people don't know anything about. But that growl-- it used to be a time you couldn't sing if you couldn't growl. Tell us about it, Twinkie. DAMIEN SNEED: That's good. TWINKIE CLARK: I don't know if you want me to say this, but I think Karen is a little better at it than me. But the growl comes from preachers. You know, they just have an effect that they do in their throat. You know, like you're clearing your throat. That same, like she said, growl. You put that with a note. You sing. And it just gives it some power. You know, instead of just singing the notes straight, you put that growling in it, and it's like it runs the devil away. It runs them demons away, especially if it's anointed. And people that have been through a lot, you know, and suffering, they're the ones that growl the most. I won't mention no names, but Karen is a little better at it than me. But let me see if I can think of a preacher that growls. Have anybody heard Aretha Franklin's father? AUDIENCE: Yes. TWINKIE CLARK: Oh, OK. Well, y'all already know this. C.L. Franklin-- He's one of the best growlers I know. CHARRISE BARRON: Awesome Awesome All right. Can I ask one more question? All right. So we talked a little bit about classical influence. We talked about the folk spiritual, which turns into the congregational songs. I would love to hear you talk a little bit about the Whitfield sound and how, if at all, it influenced you or you two interacted in terms of music. And Thomas Whitfield, we know, helped to bring a lot of that warm, full jazz sound into choral gospel music. TWINKIE CLARK: Absolutely. That's kind of hard to come behind. Thomas Whitfield was in a class of his own. His style-- he was known for doing phrasing with the beat but off the beat. Let's see if I can give you an example. I can use the one that he inspired me to write, and that's I Tried Him and I Know Him. And the beat is like this. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] And he would do like a rhythm in his phrasing that is not just the average on the beat. Y'all know what I mean? Yes. OK. Now, if I were to do it on the beat, it would be like this. (SINGING) I tried him, and I know him (SPEAKING) But what Thomas would do, he would put like an off rhythm in between it like this. (SINGING) I tried him, and I know him. (SPEAKING) Like he's saying a sentence or making a statement, but not on the beat. (SINGING) Found him to be a friend (SPEAKING) Now here he comes with the phrasing again. (SINGING) I know too much about it (SPEAKING) And the people love it. CHARRISE BARRON: Yes, we do. Yes, we do. TWINKIE CLARK: And now we're back on the beat. (SINGING) On him, I can depend (SPEAKING) That was on the beat. (SINGING) Save my soul. Made me (SPEAKING) Now he goes off the beat again. (SINGING) There's none like him (SPEAKING) Come on, try it. (SINGING) Save my soul. Made me whole (SPEAKING) Now this is off. (SINGING) There's none like him (SPEAKING) Thomas was one of my greatest inspirations. CHARRISE BARRON: Oh, my word. That's one of my favorite, favorite, favorite songs of yours. Can we just do another little line of that? We all sing that. Can we sing that? \[MUSIC PLAYING\] ALL (SINGING): I tried him, and I know him TWINKIE CLARK: Found it to be a friend. ALL (SINGING): Found him to be a friend TWINKIE CLARK: I know too much about him. ALL (SINGING): I know too much about him On him, I can depend I tried him, and I know him TWINKIE CLARK: Found him to be a friend. ALL (SINGING): Found him to be a friend TWINKIE CLARK: I know too much about him. ALL (SINGING): I know too much about him TWINKIE CLARK: On him, I can't depend. ALL (SINGING): On him, I can depend TWINKIE CLARK: Save my soul. ALL (SINGING): Save my soul. Made me whole TWINKIE CLARK: There's none like him. ALL (SINGING): There's none like him TWINKIE CLARK: One more time. ALL (SINGING): Save my soul. Made me whole There's none like him CHARRISE BARRON: Oh, my goodness. DAMIEN SNEED: So, Twinkie, for the creatives out there-- the savants, the writers, the dreamers, the painters, those who are entrepreneurs, those who take risks as you have-- We also have our own sufferings. TWINKIE CLARK: Amen. DAMIEN SNEED: Our mountains and our valleys. What music do you listen to that becomes your balm when you're going through? Who do you listen to when you need a pick-up? Who do you listen to when you need healing? When the songs that you've written-- they bless so many other people, but a lot of times people don't know that sometimes, as the creator-- the writer, you need the blessing. TWINKIE CLARK: Amen. DAMIEN SNEED: You need the refilling-- the infilling-- again, the refreshing. Who do you listen to? Who inspires you? Or who are you listening to now when you need to be refreshed, revived, renewed, inspired? TWINKIE CLARK: Well, if we look back at some of the ones that have gone on, be with the Lord. I listened to the Hawkins, Andre Crouch, and Richard Smallwood's Total Praise. The line "Your peace you give in the time of the storm." That always hits me when I'm going through pain and suffering. And of course, the old hymns, we talked about that in the congregations, and I'll name maybe one or two of the Clark Sisters songs. Blessed and highly favored-- that talks a lot about what you're going through. Praying Spirit-- the song the Lord gave me that takes me into the presence of God, which helps to take away the pain and the suffering that you're going through. And I'll think about one more. I Like-- I think his name is Lamar Campbell. More Than Anything. Yeah. (SINGING) I love you, Jesus. (SPEAKING) You know, just totally let go. (SINGING) I worship and adore you DAMIEN SNEED: Play that chorus. Play that. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] DR. CHARRISE BARRON (SINGING): I love you more than anything TWINKIE CLARK: Bring it, y'all. ALL (SINGING): I love you, Jesus I worship and adore you Just want to tell you Lord, I love you more than anything TWINKIE CLARK: It just kind of help you let go of your frustration. ALL (SINGING): I love you, Jesus I worship and adore you TWINKIE CLARK: It's like I worship you even though I'm going through. ALL (SINGING): Just want to tell you Lord, I love you more than anything TWINKIE CLARK: One more time. Somebody may be depressed, but we bind that spirit right now. And we love on Jesus anyway. ALL (SINGING): Just want to tell you Lord, I love you more than anything TWINKIE CLARK: I see somebody crying. Let's say it one more time for them. ALL (SINGING): I love you. I love you, Jesus I worship and adore you Just want to tell you Lord, I love you more than anything TWINKIE CLARK: Y'all stop me if I'm running out of time. Let's just do it one more time. ALL (SINGING): I love you. I love you, Jesus I worship, I worship and adore you Just want to tell you Just want to tell you Lord, I love you more than anything TWINKIE CLARK: It takes me there every time. CHARRISE BARRON: I feel like we should let Twinkie play the organ. Can we do that? All right. Twinkie Clark. TWINKIE CLARK: OK. OK, I had on my list-- even though the spirit took us in a whole different direction. I'll just play a little bit of what was on my list. First one is a hymn, A Mighty Fortress. \["A MIGHTY FORTRESS", PLAYING\] OK, and some of you might have heard this, You Can't Tell It. It got a little-- Well, you call it whatever kind of beat you want. \["YOU CAN'T TELL IT", PLAYING\] This is gospel. Give drummer a hand. That enough. I thought they would be tired of me by now. OK, You Brought The Sunshine-- y'all heard that one? OK, we did talk about that one, so sing along with me so you won't get tired of me. All right. Ready one, two, three, four. \["YOU BROUGHT THE SUNSHINE", PLAYING\] This is the one we talked about that crossed over on the secular station. If you know it, sing it. Give it up for Damien. Break it down. Now, I don't want Damien to get mad at me. Since him and Charrise made me do all that playing, I'm going to ask him to do at least a three minute solo. Y'all want to hear it? I love you. God bless you. Thank you, Damien and Charrise. \[APPLAUSE\] DAMIEN SNEED: Come on, give Twinkie Clark another hand. CHARRISE BARRON: Can we give \[INAUDIBLE\]? DAMIEN SNEED: The maestro. CHARRISE BARRON: OK, we're not going to hold you too long. So a lot of people submitted questions with the registration. We're not going to go through them all, but we will release answers to questions over time. But I do just want to ask you one final question or group of questions, and then we'll let you-- DAMIEN SNEED: Group of questions. CHARRISE BARRON: Yeah. Well, actually, two. Two. Because I promised Skip Gates-- Professor Gates, who loves you dearly and sends his love. He wasn't able to be here tonight, but he wanted to know if you had a chance to see the documentary that you were featured in and what you thought about it. Did you get a chance? TWINKIE CLARK: Yeah, I love you, Dr. Gates. And the documentary that you did was just incredible. It was awesome. It talked about the roots of gospel on up to today. And you did make me explain what is my living in vain was. What kind of gospel music is that? And then I went on to tell him it's bluesy and jazzy mixed up. It's my living in vain. I'll play a little bit of it. If you hear this or see this, Dr. Gates, this is especially for you, even though I already played it for you. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] I know you heard it before, Dr. Gates, but here it is again. CHARRISE BARRON: Yes. Yes. So this is the final question. DAMIEN SNEED: Final question. CHARRISE BARRON: What are you excited about doing next? What's up next for you? DAMIEN SNEED: What can we expect? CHARRISE BARRON: Yes. TWINKIE CLARK: Well, I'm hoping to do some work with an artist that's very well known, but I can't say their name here today. Y'all laughing at me. And we're supposed to do another tour. Have y'all heard about the tour? AUDIENCE: Yes. TWINKIE CLARK: It's supposed to be another tour this coming fall. And I'm super, super, super, super, super excited, especially if Damien and Dr. Barron are there, and that's Howard University. Y'all not acting excited. That's because I'm here. DAMIEN SNEED: Well, wait a minute. What's happening on November 15th, 2024? What's happening? TWINKIE CLARK: That's my 70th birthday celebration. DAMIEN SNEED: So there's going to be an event, right? TWINKIE CLARK: Yeah. DAMIEN SNEED: That's going to be an event that you want everybody to come to, right? TWINKIE CLARK: Yeah, please. I'm glad he plugged that in. It's going to be November 15 in where? My hometown Detroit, Michigan. The big D. And I know they're going to be there. I haven't asked them yet to do anything. I got to pay them probably. I better ask them how much they going to charge me first. But these two, I would like for them to be two of my guests, and the rest of them are a surprise. If you do come, you will get a chance to hear my sisters. CHARRISE BARRON: Hey. Thank you so much. TWINKIE CLARK: Don't forget November. My 70th. Praise the Lord. CHARRISE BARRON: Amen. On November 15th. TWINKIE CLARK: Birthday Celebration in Detroit. CHARRISE BARRON: Awesome. This was just amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for spending this time with us. Thank you, everybody, for being here tonight. Thank you. Thank you to the amazing drummer, Brian Deuce Thomas. Wasn't he amazing? And can we celebrate the one and only legendary Twinkie Clark? DAMIEN SNEED: And everybody, can we celebrate the mastermind who put this together? Reverend Dr. Charrise Barron, Harvard University. Stand up. CHARRISE BARRON: And Damien Sneed, please. The genius. The genius. Have a good night, everybody. \[MUSIC PLAYING\] ANNOUNCER: Sponsor, Harvard Divinity School, Harvard FAS Department of Music, Yamaha, and Hammond. ANNOUNCER: Copyright 2024. The president and fellows of Harvard College. See also:- [ Ministry ](/discover-stories-about/ministry) - [ Art ](/topic-tags/art) - [ Art and Religion ](/topic-tags/art-and-religion) - [ Music ](/topic-tags/music)