# Hope Podcast: Featuring Leah Gawel, MDiv Candidate In this episode of the *Hope Podcast*, MDiv candidate Leah Gawel speaks about the intersections of the arts, religious trauma, and the healing and empowering transformations we can bear witness to. March 13, 2026 ![Leah Gawel headshot](/sites/g/files/omnuum5526/files/styles/hwp_16_9__480x270/public/2026-05/Leah%20Gawel.jpg?h=05d9720d&itok=-gO2D9v1) Leah Gawel, MDiv Candidate HIATT O'CONNOR: Welcome to The Hope Podcast. I'm Hiatt O'Connor. JORDAN AHMED: And I'm Jordan Ahmed. HIATT O'CONNOR: This podcast is offered by the Harvard Divinity School Office of Religious and Spiritual Life— JORDAN AHMED: —where we talk to HDS students about their spiritual lives, what hope means to them, and how they practice hope daily. Today, Hiatt spoke to third year Master of Divinity student Leah Gawel about the intersections of the arts and religious trauma, and the healing and empowering transformations we can bear witness to. Harvard Divinity School · Hope Podcast: Featuring Leah Gawel, MDiv Candidate HIATT O'CONNOR: Leah, thanks for joining us. LEAH GAWEL: Thank you for having me. HIATT O'CONNOR: So to start, we'll just do our usual. Can you give us a little bit of an introduction, where is home for you, a brief spiritual autobiography if you're willing and able? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, I'm from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. I grew up in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. It's super small, super local. Normally, people here don't what it is. HIATT O'CONNOR: I do not. LEAH GAWEL: I'm always like, so you know the Missouri Synod? And then they'll sometimes be like, yeah. And I'm like, Wisconsin synod was more conservative, was more towards that direction. And normally, I get an oof just because we're at HDS. But it was very confessional Lutheran, very strict conservative. Everyone was related to everyone. So it was a little incestuous in that way. There were only a certain number of schools you could go to if you wanted to be a pastor or teacher. If you wanted to be a pastor and you were a guy, you could go to the one seminary in Mequon, Wisconsin. So it was very-- everyone was trained in this one area, and there's not a lot of room for disagreement. So that put me on my path towards religious trauma work. HIATT O'CONNOR: Can you just clarify what is confessional lutheranism? LEAH GAWEL: It's really strict conservative biblical literalism, really staying strict to the book of Concord. HIATT O'CONNOR: I see. So you said you interested in your religious trauma work and I'm assuming-- well, I also know you would have known each other for a while, but I'm assuming that is directly related to how you got to HDS. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. So I was a part of this denomination all through high school. I went to a high school within denomination, so was very closed off. So then when I went to an ELCA college, it was like, oh no, you have a woman campus pastor! Whoa, you're going to fall into sin. And then I was going into musical theater, which is even more sinful. So a lot of sin going up in there. But during that time, I really started to deconstruct. My campus pastor really became this mentor that helped me through the dogmatic ways I was thinking, because it was just so ingrained. And then being a part of musical theater, it really forced me to step into someone else's shoes, which was something you weren't really trained to do. And it taught like empathy and things like that. And I was like, I don't want my gay friends to go to hell. I don't like that. I don't how I'm being treated as a woman. So that shifted me there. And after college, I was like, I'm done. Then during my master's,-- my master's was in music, theater, vocal pedagogy. And that's when I decided, oh, I think I have some residual trauma, which is how I started looking at religious trauma. HIATT O'CONNOR: I see. And you said earlier, an ELCA school. What is that? LEAH GAWEL: Evangelical Lutheran Church of America. So that's like the liberal progressive. HIATT O'CONNOR: I see. LEAH GAWEL: The biggest branch of Lutheranism in America. HIATT O'CONNOR: And your master's in? What was it? Musical-- LEAH GAWEL: Music theater vocal pedagogy. HIATT O'CONNOR: Music theater vocal pedagogy. You went into that because you really-- I'm assuming, because you really love the musical theater things that you were accessing in undergrad. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, it was really science driven. It was really like, this is how the anatomy works to make these sounds and then how you can teach it, and I really loved that. I noticed during my degree, my cohort, I sometimes had some vocal problems that they didn't, such as making belchior sounds, such as making louder sounds, such as certain sounds being tied to emotional states and not knowing where this came from. So there were a few like, psychosomatic hang ups. So then I started being like, wonder where that's coming from. And at the same time, it was during the pandemic. So a lot of us were on social media. I started seeing more religious trauma content. I started consuming Dan McLellan's content, where it's going against misinformation. And so that all happened at the same time. HIATT O'CONNOR: Wow! And it seems like from the get-go with musical theater, even though you had fallen in love with it for its own reasons, that it was tied to-- or maybe tied to is the wrong metaphor-- but nevertheless related to this really gradual process of deconstruction. That you were then starting to do more consciously and deliberately. Is that right? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. It's funny because in high school, we couldn't really do a lot of musical theater because it was sinful. We could do like Oklahoma and stuff like that. But my show choir director really loved Rent. HIATT O'CONNOR: I see. LEAH GAWEL: But that was a big no no. So whenever we performed our Rent medley, he had to go up and be like, we don't condone the actions in this musical, but we want to focus on the friendship and love themes. But we don't condone anything. It's about love and friendship for us and that's it. HIATT O'CONNOR: Oh, wow! LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: What would that-- that's not really cognitive. Is that cognitive dissonance what that would be called? What would that be called, that phenomenon? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, I mean-- yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah, OK. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. \[LAUGHS\] It's really trying to justify why you want to do rent but can't for all the parents who get upset. HIATT O'CONNOR: OK. And you graduated with your master's in music and vocal pedagogy in what year? LEAH GAWEL: 2021. HIATT O'CONNOR: 2021, wow. Right in the pandemic. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got my undergrad in 2019. I was actually in Jinan, China right before the pandemic. We left right before the festival, which I think the day we got back was the day before they started screening at O'Hare for COVID. So we got out right on time. HIATT O'CONNOR: Wow! LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: And why were you in China? LEAH GAWEL: I was choreographing a production of Lion King Jr. It was super cute, at Kwan Kwan theater school. HIATT O'CONNOR: OK. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: How did you get that opportunity? Was it through your master's degree, your first master's? LEAH GAWEL: This was before I did that master's, but I went on a tour of China at some point in college. We did Seussical. HIATT O'CONNOR: A Seussical. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, we toured it around some of the schools to-- HIATT O'CONNOR: Like a Dr. Seuss musical? Is that what's it? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: OK. OK. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah it was a condensed version of Seussical, but my school, Carthage college, had a lot of partnerships with schools in China and different cities for international exchanges. So I did that tour to promote that, and someone I knew from the tour was directing and was like, hey, I need a choreographer. HIATT O'CONNOR: Wow! What an amazing opportunity. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: And a quick exit, a timely exit right before it's locked down. LEAH GAWEL: Yes, yes, yes. HIATT O'CONNOR: Wow! So there was a couple years of a gap. But then can you just say a little bit about why HDS? What was it that drew you to here specifically? LEAH GAWEL: So I was debating if I wanted to go the psychology route or go the religious studies route, or go the music route and how I wanted to go about this topic. And I think at the time, too, I was like, psychology makes the most sense. Why I'm so drawn to going to Divinity School. And I think now I've parsed out that I want to be able to say, I have some knowledge in this. The pastors in my former denomination were always like, well, we have a degree in this and we can read the original languages, so you can't ask us any questions because we better than you. So it felt really healing to be like, oh, yeah, now how to read the Greek and stuff, and now I have the same degree as you once I graduate. HIATT O'CONNOR: So you came to HDS as a way to-- at least this is how I'm hearing it, forgive me if I'm projecting-- to maybe try to do-- jack of all trades is the wrong thing, but try to get as many birds in one basket at a time. Right? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. I think there's a lot that therapy and psychology helps with religious trauma and considering I'm planning on doing that after this. But I think, for me, the most healing parts were learning about how it was weaponized, learning about the history, learning about the different interpretations, because, in my mind, it was always so black and white thinking. It was always if one thing is incorrect or if there's one contradiction in the Bible. Then you throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like we need to defend this at all costs. So going through those theological questions, I don't think a therapist could have walked me through that. Which sounds really selfish that I want to do that for myself, but I think it will also help a lot of other people. HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah, I don't think that's selfish at all. I had similar questions when I was coming in about-- that's the reason I took Greek. I'm here for Buddhist Studies. And I could have-- well, some argue I should have taken Pali instead or tried to do classical Chinese or something to that effect. But when I was growing up, I didn't experience weaponization of theology in the Bible to that degree. But I did experience a lot of people in my family and people I knew using Christian theologies and using very formulaic teachings to justify certain worldviews and certain ways of behaving in the world, and also give certain explanations of things that, to me, were never satisfying. So like you, I thought, well, OK, let me actually see what this says, and the way it is said and the way it could be said that isn't traditional. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. I definitely got the cliche growing up where I was always told in school, you don't interpret the Bible. The Bible interprets itself. And if you try to interpret the Bible, you're adding yourself onto God's message and blah, blah, blah. HIATT O'CONNOR: And that was dissatisfying for you, I would assume. LEAH GAWEL: Not at the time, not at the time. I was fully in. I was fully committed. I was like, yes, this is correct. But then it's hard when you come into conflict with, oh, I don't how I'm being treated as a woman, but-- HIATT O'CONNOR: So if you're comfortable with it, can you tell us a little bit more about your work at HDS? I know it's expansive knowing you, but just a little bit about how your background informs what you're doing. Maybe the things you're planning in the immediate future this semester, what you plan on doing afterwards. LEAH GAWEL: So my capstone is this verbatim play called Broken Covenant that I started as part of a \[? fildad ?\] venture with a professor at my undergraduate University. For anyone who doesn't know, verbatim play is interviewing people about their real-world experiences. And then those become the words of the play. The words that were spoken become the text. And you're putting all of these separate interviews in conversation with each other. So it's not a narrative. It's like this thematic arc where it's real people, struggling and grappling with questions. HIATT O'CONNOR: I'm writing a collection of poems for my senior-- they call it a senior thesis, but we're third-year master's students, so it's odd verbiage there. But for my project, I'm writing a collection of poems. And similarly, there's not a narrative in a collection of poems or a poetry manuscript. But there is this thematic arc that emerges over time in compiling it, and also in what the individual poems or for what your project is the individual people are themselves offering. There's a very common teaching tool used in CPE programs that we-- and it's a little dated and slightly problematic, but it is useful if you've never heard it before, that we should approach people, other patients or other people who are offering pastoral care to, as living texts, like human beings as living texts. And for your project to do that in a very formally clear and distinct way, I think. I don't know. It seems to me related and important. LEAH GAWEL: I think the big thing that I wanted to get across with this project is that trauma comes in all shapes and forms. And a lot of people feel like, oh, because this really bad thing didn't happen to me, or, well, it's not as bad as X, Y, or Z, then it's not actually trauma. It's not actually real. So a lot of these stories just go untold and people hold them inside themselves with this quiet shame of did I really go through what I went through. So it really highlights these small little significant moments or phrases or things that have happened that stick with them in adulthood that you maybe wouldn't expect. HIATT O'CONNOR: It sounds like the whole process of creating and then presenting that project is healing, not just for those who you're interviewing, who get to share this experience and have it validated in that way and witnessed in that way. But for you also to witness and validate and to share with them. And then also for people just to-- I don't know if you're going to have it produced in a way to where it's an actual play. But if you go to see it or if you go to read it, to have yourself validated and witnessed as a reader, as somebody who's taking in the text. Because it might be a play focused on religious trauma and elements of religious trauma, but trauma across the board has a lot of resemblances, even if it's not explicitly religious trauma. So it can have a really wakeful and far-reaching effect. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, I definitely understand that healing power, I guess. This summer is when I did a lot of interviews, I stayed with my family for almost the whole summer. So it was this really big cognitive dissonance of I'm going to go interview these people, and a lot of people came from my former denomination. And hearing about those awful things and knowing, oh, that's the school I went to, I know this person you're talking about. I'm so involved in this world. And hearing about trauma for hours and hours and then going home, and my mom is watching church on TV and the pastor is saying things I find absolutely repulsive. So figuring out how to grapple with, OK, this is my research. This is my experience versus this is still my family dynamic, and how do I navigate that. But then also in terms of the healing process for the interviewees, is a lot of the interviewees came for our first reading that summer after the interviews. And, of course, we take all of the necessary steps to make sure it's confidential or make sure it's anonymous. We had a TalkBack after the show and someone asked a question, and I forget even what the question was and it was about someone's story. And literally the interviewee raised her hand in the audience being like, oh, yeah, that was my story and blah, blah, blah, and was able to give that explanation to that audience member. And then the interviewee was like, how many other interviewees are there? And I was like you don't have to raise your hands. And all of them, raised their hands like they all felt it was a safe space to do that, and they were really proud of the work that was done. So it was a really impactful moment. HIATT O'CONNOR: And empowering too. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, yeah HIATT O'CONNOR: Do you think that there is an element-- this is something I'm hearing in it that may or may not be accurate, that when you leave your community or step aside from it to deconstruct because you've been traumatized or for whatever reason, that it's often difficult to find another community or that there is this gap. And so that being the case for I don't want to-- actually, I don't want to generalize. But that being the case for some people, if not many people-- do you think that this project also is a way of forming new communities and new connections between people? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. I think I'm lucky to be here and to be able to form communities with people with common interests, but I don't think that happens for a lot of people who leave their churches. And that's a big social loss. That's a big communal loss. That's like missing something. A lot of people will stick in unhealthy situations just because that loss will shake their world so much. But you're starting to see these pockets of communities of people who've had similar experiences start to form. I know after the summer where I was interviewing people, one of the interviewees, who is a good friend of mine, started forming this X Wells discussion group where people were able to talk about their experiences. And even just getting people in the same room to recognize this place, this Synod has caused a lot of harm, is something that's just not done. It's always like this very secret thing. So just getting that out there was really impressive, and I'm really proud of them for doing that. HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. I would be proud too. It seems like it's another instance of a wide network of healing processes that are all interrelated. And which your work here is one significant node of. That's really special. Thank you for sharing that. I'm going to give you a little plug here. I know there's a certain conference that you've been instrumental in putting together that's happening soon. Could you say a little bit about that? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. So on April 16 and 17, we're doing the inaugural religious trauma symposium, which I'm really excited about. We've been planning it these past few months, and I think it's going to be really great. So it's Thursday and Friday. The Thursday night's going to be a showing of this play, a reading of it, and then Friday is going to be panels and roundtables. And then that evening our keynote is Dan McClellan and Dan Beecher from the Data Over Dogma podcast, which is so exciting considering that his content was one of the reasons I ended up here. HIATT O'CONNOR: I'm a fan of his too. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: I have a good friend, Dylan. And Dylan, if you're listening, hello. He has been sending me Dan McLellan's content for a long time now, and I'd never really watched until about a year ago, and now I can't get enough. I love that guy. LEAH GAWEL: And Dan Beecher too is so great. I resonate with him in the podcast so much with the person who's like, OK, I have no idea what you're talking about. Please explain it to me. But yeah, I think he is also really representative of the people who have been harmed by that and is able to bring that background and knowledge into that. HIATT O'CONNOR: I think bringing those folks here to HDS, too, is going to be really valuable perspective to the student body and even the faculty who hear a lot of mentions about religious trauma and religious trauma, work, and psychology work around it and somatic work around it, but maybe don't have a full exposure to that sort of work. So I think not only are you doing a lot of important healing work for other people and for yourself, but you're offering to the academy and to other people just valuable information and perspective that they probably wouldn't get otherwise. LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. I'm really hoping it spreads to the faculty. I think that's one of the main reasons we wanted to host this event-- because religious trauma research has really picked up in the last few years. But during my first year, talking about how I wanted to research religious trauma and being told, oh, that's not really a thing. It's just trauma with a religious context. There's nothing really unique about that. And now, all of a sudden, it's starting to get that more respect. And I'm hoping the conversation continues and we can build momentum on that. HIATT O'CONNOR: That would be really fantastic. And I have a feeling it is trending that way here. Not only because of this conference is happening, but just the more things we're hearing out of the Office of Ministry Studies about different programs and that the dean is being receptive to these sorts of things. It's an important development that's happening for the broader community. LEAH GAWEL: Not just because of me? HIATT O'CONNOR: No, not just because of you, but you're instrumental. \[LAUGHTER\] I'll say, I think so. That's my two cents. Well, this is a related question, but are there any practices or insights that you've gained over your life or recently in the years that either are from a tradition or not from a tradition-- and by the way, the word "tradition" is very capacious-- that give you hope or that make you feel hopeful? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. So I don't do any I guess, religious-tradition stuff. I haven't taken the Eucharist since leaving the church or anything like that, but something I do, I do pole, I do pole dancing, which has been so incredibly healing, first of all, in terms of purity, culture, and things like that. But then also coming from a musical theater background where it was very need to look a certain way in your body to get jobs. You need to lose weight. You need to go to this many dance classes and eat X, Y, or Z things was really harmful. So now being able to get into a room with a great group of women and queers and focusing more on what our bodies can do, rather than necessarily what they look like, and focusing on what feels good. Like the idea of sensuality as what feels good to your body is a totally new concept for me, considering it's always been based on the male gaze or how you're being perceived. HIATT O'CONNOR: Yet another empowerment, right? It seems like the broad thematic connection through a lot of the story that you've shared today has to do with witnessing healing and empowerment. That's really special. And it shows that those sorts of things can happen in all manner of different places and in locales like you can. It can happen through touring a musical in China and teaching children. It can happen through academy work, and getting these scholars who you really admire to come and give a conference on this thing that you're working on. It can happen through doing creative work in the academy like what you're doing. It can happen in your personal life. All of those different aspects seem to mutually inform and support each other. Am I right there? LEAH GAWEL: Yeah. I think just coming from a liberal arts background, I've always found it important to expand yourself into all these different areas of knowledge. And sometimes when I describe my background and my degrees and my previous jobs and the jobs I'm doing now, you can see a look on other person's face, like how is this all connected. And I'm like, I swear it is. But it really is. It really shapes who you are inside the room, outside the room, and just who you're becoming. HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that I appreciate that. And then before we go, do you have any podcasts or books or movies or any other sorts of media that you would recommend to our listeners? LEAH GAWEL: I've been on my millionth rewatch of The Good Place. It is my favorite show. I think it's healed a lot of my religious trauma. It's just delightful, and it'll make you cry. So if you don't feel like crying, maybe don't watch that. HIATT O'CONNOR: Maybe don't watch The Good Place if you are-- LEAH GAWEL: Yeah, yeah, yeah. HIATT O'CONNOR: Is it like a big time ugly cry or a sweet, poignant type of cry or a little bit of both? LEAH GAWEL: Both. Especially once you get to that finale. I'm like, ugly crying. HIATT O'CONNOR: OK. LEAH GAWEL: I'm not a pretty crier. HIATT O'CONNOR: Is anybody really a pretty crier? LEAH GAWEL: Yes. HIATT O'CONNOR: Really? LEAH GAWEL: And it's not me. HIATT O'CONNOR: I'm not on that list either, but the search will go on. All right. Thank you for joining, Leah. I really appreciate your conversation with us today. LEAH GAWEL: Thank you for having me. See also:- [ Student Activities and Interviews ](/discover-stories-about/student-activities-and-interviews)