Meaning Makers of HDS: The Sacred Work of Presence

TYLER SPROUSE: Welcome to Meaning Makers of HDS, a new podcast by Harvard Divinity School exploring meaning making through religion, spirituality, vocation, and beyond. Each episode of this podcast will feature HDS alumni and other community members discussing how they cultivate meaningful lives, working across an array of fields, and how they help others do the same. In our first episode, I spoke with Ailya Vajid, MTS '11, and Maytal Saltiel, MDiv '12, about meaning making through the chaplain's sacred work of presence. I'm Tyler Sprouse, and this is Meaning Makers of HDS. 

Thank you both so much for joining today for our first episode of the Meaning Makers of HDS podcast. I'm excited to have this conversation with you. As we begin, can you introduce yourselves and share a bit about your current chaplaincy context? 

AILYA VAJID: So, thank you so much for having us. It's such a pleasure to be here and to reconnect with an old friend in the process as well. So my name is Ailya Vajid, and I'm a chaplain at the Bismillah Institute and an affiliate chaplain at Alanur. And both are wellness nonprofits that provide different types of counseling and care services, particularly focused on the Muslim community, though open to all. 

And through grants and donors, they provide subsidized or free services to folks below a particular income bracket to make this care accessible to anyone who's seeking it. And the services I provide are from a spiritual perspective. Oftentimes, folks are already working with a therapist, and then want to process things from a God-centered perspective. Or they're struggling with the divine or religious practice and are seeking a change. Or they might want in their life to be more spiritually aligned with their values, and so they come to work with me on things from a more spiritual perspective. 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: Just to echo Ailya, thank you, Tyler, for having us. This is. I'm excited. This will be fun. My name is Maytal Saltiel. I'm the University Chaplain at Yale University, which means I serve the students, staff, and faculty of Yale, and often, alumni and others in the community. And I serve on a team with eight different chaplains from different religious traditions. And it's a privilege to be able to work with folks from across the University. 

TYLER SPROUSE: Thank you. Your introductions really highlight the range of different kinds of chaplaincy and what that looks like across different contexts. Stepping back for a moment, what does it mean to be a chaplain? How would you describe the role of the chaplain? 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: So I say the role of the chaplain in our office has four main buckets that we focus on across the University. And so the first one is supporting our religious and spiritual communities. We have 25 to 30 different religious groups on campus at any time. And it's making sure that they have the resources that they need, whether in spiritual care, in having a religious leader, having a space to pray, making sure that we can work with them on religious accommodations, supporting them during their fast times, their prayer times, and helping them advocate for themselves as religious beings. 

My second bucket is all around pastoral care and spiritual care. And it's providing one-on-one emotional support and care to folks as they walk through life in the good times and the bad. And so that's responding in times of crisis, whether in personal crisis, in somebody's life, whether in community crisis of something that happened on campus or in their hometowns or the places they come from, or whether in global crisis and things that are affecting all of us around the world. 

And often, that's accompaniment and listening. And sometimes, it's organizing vigils and holding processing spaces and healing spaces. And sometimes, I tell students, come and tell us the good things, too. We're not only here for the bad, but we want to celebrate your little brother's little league win or whatever it is. And then sometimes, it's the dark night of the soul, the struggling with who I am and what do I want to do in this world when this world feels increasingly complicated? 

What does my religious tradition say about this? How am I going to go home and talk to my parents about this? Sometimes, it's around sexuality. Sometimes it's around disputes with roommates and trying to figure out how to live in beloved community together. It really depends on whatever the person needs coming into the space. 

The third bucket is around inter-religious dialogue and conversation, helping people how to talk to one another and ask questions of each other to lead with curiosity. And part of the job of the chaplain is to model that, to say that it's important to be in relationship with one another. That that's what helps lead to building community and belonging. 

And part of that interfaith work is also around literacy, religious literacy. How do we help explain our traditions to other people? And often, folks grow in their own beliefs and traditions when they're in conversation and in relationship with those that are different from them. 

The fourth bucket is around meaning making and grounding. That, again, we live in this really difficult world. And how are we here, as students, as staff, as faculty, as humans trying to make meaning in it? Part of that is facilitating larger conversations around it, helping people find it in their own lives. Or they might have it, but they don't have the words for it. So finding the words for it. 

And part of that is also reminding people to be human. Places like Yale, like Harvard, sometimes treat you like a brain on a stick. There's so much more to you than that. How do we embrace whimsy and playfulness? How do we be human in a world? In which, again, that's very hard. 

AILYA VAJID: Maytal, I love how you just embrace the beauty and complexity and richness of this role and described it so beautifully. So alongside with Maytal was saying, I feel like, for me, chaplaincy is walking alongside someone on their journey of self-knowledge and growth, supporting and accompanying them through life's challenges and joys, and helping them discover the tools for healing, wholeness, and peace that ultimately lie within themselves. 

For many, this journey also includes the divine, and whether it's turning to God for support during hardship or cultivating gratitude, discovering meaning and purpose in one's experiences, working through a strained relationship with the divine, or seeking to build a new relationship or deepen one's existing relationship with the divine. And chaplain provides a welcoming, compassionate, non-judgmental mental space, meeting you where you are, and supporting you towards all that you're seeking. 

A chaplain does not have any expectations of one's way of being, and doesn't impose upon someone, but is present to where the person is in that moment and where they're seeking to go. And I think integrating the spiritual dimension into this care brings in something higher. And I work a lot with the Muslim community, so that often is really present. And it gives people a greater sense of purpose, meaning, and even strength as they're navigating things that can be really challenging in their lives. And spiritual care helps us to process those hardships and begin to heal, perhaps finding meaning in what we've endured and seeing how we've been transformed by that experience. 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: Yes, so much about chaplaincy is about that transformation. That the person coming into your office or as they start first year or as they enter into this moment of care, knowing that they will be transformed, and that they'll leave in a different place, and that you're the vessel that helps them get there. That they are doing the work of it, but you're here to accompany them through it in a non-anxious way. The non-anxious presence part of chaplaincy, I think, is also really important in the work that we do. 

AILYA VAJID: And I feel like with the campus work, people are coming from a home context or a context where they've been shaped by other people. And this is that moment where they really get to discover, who am I? How do I navigate the world? If I come from a tradition, how does this fit into my life now? What does it look like now in this new context with other people and other ways of practicing it or other ways of being in it? 

How do I discover this for myself, and how does it integrate into my life in this moment? And that's like such a special journeying that I think we've gotten to do with folks as a vessel, as you said. Not with any particular expectation, but just a presence for them as they navigate that and allowing them to discover that for themselves. 

TYLER SPROUSE: Before moving on, I'm curious, what advice would you give folks listening to this conversation, students, particularly, who are considering chaplaincy as a career path? 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: I think each of us comes to this in different ways and does chaplaincy different. So much of this is based on our personalities and our histories and how we can hold this space. So I'd say, be in conversation. Go talk to chaplains. Just because you had one experience of chaplain and hopefully it was great doesn't mean that that's going to be the same experience at every college. 

When I was at HDS, I did my Capstone Project on University chaplaincies, and I interviewed nine or 10 different chaplains. And it was incredible to me to see the vast differences in all these different chaplaincies. So I think that's one thing I would say. In terms of coursework, go study everything. 

Chaplaincy is about everything. And so try to get as much curiosity and just experience as you can. And definitely take counseling and pastoral care classes. Super important to understand what it means to do that at company work and how do we best support people who come into our spaces. 

AILYA VAJID: Yeah, 100%. I agree with all of that. I think I'm just going to add little pieces that are exactly the same thing in some ways. Definitely talking with people. And like you said, across campuses things are so different. And then of course, across chaplaincy context, things are so different. 

I feel like I've talked to chaplains who had an expectation of what campus chaplaincy looks like, and then came into it, and it was a very different thing. And then they realized, actually, hospital chaplaincy is what I feel called to because I want to be in that really intense moment of care when I may only meet with the family once or twice, but I'm present for this really, really meaningful, intense moment in their lives. And then, I mean, it's never see them again. 

Whereas on the campus or in another setting, you build a longer term relationship with someone. And so as Maytal said, talking to different chaplains across different contexts gives the picture of what that looks like, which can be really helpful in figuring out if this is where you're meant to be and which context might be the right fit as well. 

TYLER SPROUSE: Thank you both for sharing those perspectives. You've both spent significant time working as chaplains on college campuses. In this particular moment, why is campus chaplaincy so important? 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: There are so many reasons. Higher ed is in a moment that is very complicated. And it's one that we have not, in my lifetime, experienced. And I think higher ed, as an institution, has been transformed in my lifetime, but for even longer. And it's one in which-- I mean, there are clearly attacks on institutions of higher education. And anxiety in higher ed is very high. 

And so if I'm looking at it from an institutional perspectives what chaplains can offer to institutions of higher ed, to faculty, to administrators, to staff, is really that non-anxious presence. It's that a place, an ability to breathe when it feels like everything that you've known to be true is thrown up in the air. And I think for students, I mean, the reason I'm out of college and in college chaplaincy is because what an incredible opportunity this is to work with folks who are coming out of their home experiences, like Ailya was saying. 

In particular, traditions, understanding their own circumstances and then being thrown in to work with so many different people and live with so many different people from across the world in all kinds of diversities, and figure out, who am I in this? What is important to me? I love that opportunity to work with, young people, as their brains are developing. They don't have fully formed prefrontal cortex or all their brain structures. 

They're trying to figure out their identities in this world, what's important to them, what's meaningful, what they want to do with their lives, what their value systems are. What a gift and privilege this work is. And also, the anxiety that they all have and being, again, that non-anxious presence, to be able to tell them to breathe. You're going to be OK. We're going to work through this together. I'm here. I love you. We can do this, and you can talk through it. And you're going to figure it out. 

The pressures that seniors are under to find a job or get accepted into a program. To be the person to remind them, you only need one job. You're going to find a place to live. To be that person that says, it's going to be OK. Who do you want to be in this world? 

AILYA VAJID: Beautiful. Alongside that, we live in a world, and right now, in a country of a lot of suffering, injustice, and disconnection. And chaplaincy brings people together, allowing us to uplift and connect with one another's humanness. For me, our humanity is sacred. And part of the work of chaplaincy is getting to ourselves as our unique selves, with our own purpose, and then also recognizing ourselves as a collective humanity, all interconnected with one another and all sacred. 

In the Islamic tradition, we say that we also contain the divine presence within us that God breathes of God's spirit into each of us. And so each of us containing the divine presence within us. And college chaplaincy opens the way for us to create deep bonds and community with those from the same tradition and the diversity contained within that tradition. And it also creates opportunities for us to celebrate the diversity of the wider campus community, and to build relationships and understanding across traditions, communities, cultures, and different ways of being. 

Getting to know one another across identities and divides is a gift that can enrich our lives as we honor, celebrate, and learn from one another's cultures, beliefs, heritages, wisdom, and ways of being. It can also be challenging when those ways of being don't always agree with one another, which makes the work even more important. As we, again, center that humanness and recognize the sanctity and inherent worth of each human being as we engage across different ways of being in the world. 

That said, when we're not approaching it from that perspective in today's world, there's challenging bits and can be limits there. But I think I'm speaking more ideally of this work in a chaplaincy context where you have those skilled facilitators as chaplains who are supporting that work. College chaplaincy also holds space for, as we were saying earlier, for people to live into their tradition with fellow practitioners and to grow and thrive in them and discover who they are and what they seek to do in the world and how they want to contribute to the world's flourishing, and, again, discover who they are in these traditions in new ways as they meet people from different backgrounds and different ways of being and get to figure out, who am I now in this tradition as I'm surrounded with new possibilities? 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: I think just to highlight something that she was just saying is that chaplains help you sit in the discomfort. That is something that people don't want to do. And yet, it's so important. And that's what college is also about. 

How do we sit in the discomfort both internally but also externally? To learn how to listen to things that are super unfamiliar to us and might be really challenging to our belief systems and who we are. And that I don't have to agree with you, to be willing to be in conversation with you and relationship with you. That's such a fundamental part of the work that we do. 

AILYA VAJID: Absolutely. And it feels so needed in our world, especially right now. Because it is incredibly, right, so incredibly challenging to be with people that we may not agree on such deep levels. And at the same time, that's the work that we need to do, to really see each other's humanness across these different ways of being, and to really be able to have those conversations and share space together. Because we do live in a world that's really fractured and divided, and we are going to come across one another. 

So how do we coexist and start to be in the same space? And I think part of it is that once we start to build those relationships, some of the barriers do start to come down. Because we see that humanness in one another and start to see the ways that we connect, and, again, can see each other's humanity. So there could be something really profound in that, too. 

TYLER SPROUSE: That's really powerful. Thank you. As its name suggests, this podcast is designed to explore questions of meaning making, a huge emphasis here at HDS. We've already talked so much about meaning and purpose. But to address it more directly, how do chaplains help others make meaning in their lives? Also, how does your role as a chaplain inform your own life's meaning? 

AILYA VAJID: I think that each of us was created with different gifts and talents. And part of the journey of life is discovering them, and then discovering the part of our purpose that is sharing those gifts and talents with the world. One of the most meaningful parts of life, for me, is in service to others. And I think that's what really brings us a great sense of meaning and joy and purpose. 

And so even as we were speaking about the work we do, I feel like there's so much joy and meaning and purpose in that. And so supporting other people in discovering that for themselves, discovering what's important for them in the world, what causes meaningful for them, or what is it that they're seeking to change, or what is it that they're seeking to discover in themselves that gives them a sense of meaning and purpose. 

And again, for a lot of folks I work with, there's also a sense of the divine and God present in that as well. And that also gives a great sense of meaning and purpose. Again, it can give a sense of meaning to the suffering that we endure. It can help us transform and grow into the person that we want to be and the ways that we seek to contribute to the world. And I feel like there can be a great sense of meaning in that as well. 

And then for me personally, part of the journey of life is, again, really knowing oneself. And I spoke earlier about that kind of divine spark that each of us contains within us. And so for me, part of it is discovering that uniqueness that God has created in me. And uncovering that divine presence that's within and allowing that light to shine on those around me. And so it's not even me, really, but being a vessel for that greater light that's within and allowing that to be the transformative power for people around me. 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: I think part of the beauty of chaplaincy, or how we can allow for meaning making, is the first step is that we need to slow down. That this world is moving so incredibly fast. But these things, our phones increase the speed at which we're moving. Our students are triple booking themselves at every hour of the day. They have so much going on, and they don't give their brains time to rest. 

And so how do we help slow down the conversation, to listen to that still, small voice, to listen to what really is driving us? What is our meaning and purpose? What gifts do we want to offer the world? What places do we feel most nourished and most fulfilled? If we move too fast, we can't hear that. There's so much other noise that's happening. 

And there's a rat race in which they're trying to perform and to do what they think you have to do in order to be successful. We never talk about what does success actually mean. Where are the places-- does it mean a particular amount of money? Does it mean some amount of accolades? What is a successful life really? 

One of the things I've actually started this semester is a Chaplain's Tea series, which is all around meaning and purpose. And so I live in a chaplain's house on campus. And every Friday afternoon, at 3 o'clock, I open up my doors. And I have a guest come talking about meaning and purpose in their life. And it's been faculty, local community members, and staff, administrators. Because we don't ever have those conversations. 

And so as chaplains, we have the privilege of being able to actually offer those conversations to students. And I love just watching them. Their eyes sparkle and open up. When they think about, what does this mean? And one of the lessons that have come out of the Tea this semester is that, for most of these people, they did not enter college knowing this is what they wanted to do. They're meandering path through life have led them to this place. But you only that looking back. You can't know that looking forward. 

And our students, I don't think, realize that. I think they see somebody who's being accomplished, that there is one way in which to get there. There are so many different ways. As many people on this campus, there are that many different ways to lead to meaning and success. And for me, the personal question of where I find meaning, this work is so incredibly meaningful to me. 

I cannot imagine doing anything else in my life. That it brings together what I see as my gifts. The spark of God and the divine in me, there's a Jewish Hasidic teaching that's very similar to this Muslim teaching of this divine spark in each of us. And it helps me recognize that divine spark in one another. 

What a gift it is to draw out that light, to both help somebody recognize it in themselves. But also to help you recognize it in one another. Even intense and maybe uncomfortable situations, where the world does not want you to see that spark in one another. How can we slow down enough to actually do that? 

TYLER SPROUSE: That's great. I really love this notion of slowing down and tapping into that awareness of the divine in those around us on a daily basis, cultivating that awareness. As chaplains and in your lives, generally, how do you practice this awareness? How do you ground yourselves in what is most meaningful day in and day out? Also, how did your time at HDS impact how you think about meaning making in your lives and in your careers? 

AILYA VAJID: In my own life, spending time in nature is a really meaningful part of connecting to myself and finding meaning and purpose. And as we were saying earlier, discovering myself and what brings me meaning and joy and purpose in my life. That slowing down Maytal was speaking about, I've had to teach myself to not take my device out with me into nature, or have it turned off, and just get to spend some quiet time. 

I live in Minnesota now, so by the lakes. Just by water, I find to be really peaceful and calming and helps me turn inwards. And that's been a really important part of connecting with myself and with the divine. 

Also, time in prayer and meditation and the Islamic tradition, also called dhikr, kind of remembrance of God, reciting the Quran. Those quiet moments, especially in the early morning, are really an important way that I nourish myself and fill my own cup. And just yeah, I get to have that quiet time. That feels really important and meaningful for me. 

HDS was really important in a lot of different ways. I was still figuring it out, to be honest. I hadn't figured out whether I wanted to go into academia or chaplaincy or what. And so HDS was my let's figure it out terrain and let's see what happens. 

And classes were really important. Maytal had spoken about the pastoral counseling classes. Those were transformative, I think, not only for my life as a chaplain, but my life in general. I felt like I learned how to communicate in such different and new ways that I think really just shaped me as a person. And that was really important and meaningful. 

So some of the classes were transformative, some of the Islamic studies classes I took there and in other places. What I also love about HDS is that you can take half your classes. I don't know if it's still that way. But when we were there, you could take half your classes outside in other places. 

And as Maytal was saying earlier, what's beautiful about chaplaincy is you can go learn about anything and everything, and it all can be integrated because chaplaincy is just so-- it's just part of life. It's life and humanity. And it encompasses everything. And so what was beautiful about HDS is it really gave us that opportunity. 

So I took a class at Boston College with James Morris on Persian Sufi literature. And that ended up transforming my life. And actually, I mentioned I was away last week. I was at a conference. And I think I saw him for the first time since one of my last visits to Boston. And it was so beautiful to get to reflect on, actually, how much that transformed my own life, my spiritual practice. And so HDS was such a big part of that. 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: I mean, I think I echo some of the same ways that I find meaning in my life and slow down. Nature is such an important part of that. For me, Shabbat is a practice of rest. Every Friday night, I have Shabbat dinner with my family. And I talk to my kids about what has been your rosebud and thorn? What's something that was good in the week? What's something that was less good in the week? And what's something we're looking forward to? How do we have-- and we do practices of gratitude at Shabbat dinner as well. 

I try to find places to rest that also bring me out into nature, going for hikes. I get to live by the water here in Connecticut. And so every few months, I go out to a Catholic retreat center that's right on the shoreline and take the day to read, to write, to just be with myself in the quiet and to watch the seagulls and to watch the waves lap in the water. And for me, water has been such a restorative thing to be near. I feel like it re-regulates my nervous system to hear the lapping of water. 

I think around the question of HDS, HDS was an incredible opportunity. I really loved my time there. Part of it was the community. Part of it was being classmates with people like Ailya, really incredible people who are also on this journey. And so to have conversations around divine presence, which I had never had in my life before. The conversations that we had at HDS were amazing and transformative. 

And then also, the classes that were incredible, and with the conversations with professors and the things I was learning and reading. But I think the other thing were the opportunities to do field ed. So I spent a summer-- thanks to the CSWR in India, I actually met my husband there. So really life transforming. 

And I worked at Brown in the chaplain's office. And I did CPE. And these hands on experiences that I got because of HDS, I would not have it any other way, really were life changing. 

AILYA VAJID: You reminded me of a piece I wanted to add, which was the friends. The friends were people I'm still in touch with to this day who are deep friends of the heart. It's just that, I feel like is one of the greatest gifts that one could get. And as you said, the kinds of conversations that we could have, I couldn't have imagined having with anyone else around, as you said, divine presence, around spirituality, around who we are, what we seek to do in the world. 

Just the depths of our humanity, the divine. I mean, again can't really imagine having those conversations with anyone else. And yeah, incredibly beautiful. And just to have mentors that actually really lovingly care about you. I remember coming back a couple-- I don't know if it was months or a couple of years after graduation and meeting with one of my professors. Because I wasn't sure. 

Do I want to go into counseling? Do I want to go into chaplaincy? Do I want to do something else? And I graduated. We didn't need to have a conversation. But she and others were willing to sit down with me and talk through it and figure out what was my vocation, what was my calling, and where would I make a meaningful impact in the world. And it's really special to have people like that that actually care and are also incredibly gifted and wonderful. 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: Yeah, one of my friends from HDS is now back at HDS as professor, Nikki Hoskins, who is an incredible genius, amazing woman doing amazing work. And so to know that HDS continues to attract such amazing people, just tells me that the faculty, the mentors, the people care about the world, and they continue to care about the world and care about their students.

TYLER SPROUSE: Finally, what is insight from your respective traditions that you find particularly meaningful, something that you find yourself thinking about on a daily basis or that you come back to often? 

MAYTAL SALTIEL: So I think there's a teaching that I come back to every day. And it's in Perkei Avot or The Teachings of Our Parents-- our fathers, but our parents. That's Rabbi Tarfon, who's a Talmudic sage. And it's, "You are not obligated to complete the task, but neither are you free to desist from it." 

And so for me, this idea that we all have a job in this world. And we can't do it all on our own. That we all need each other in order to complete this healing of the world, this bringing the shards of brokenness back together is so important. And the idea that I have to do it. 

Because if I don't do my job, it's not going to work. If you don't do your job, it's not going to work. I can't do your job, and you can't do my job. But we need to be able to show up together. And on the hard days, I think that that is something that both grounds me and motivates me. I can't do it all. None of us can do it all. But we need to continue to show up for one another and do what we can do. 

AILYA VAJID: That's really beautiful and inspiring, Maytal. Thank you for sharing that. On my end, I kind of shared a little bit of it as we were speaking, but this idea of the divine breath or divine spark that lies within each of us and the ways that we can really uplift one another's humanity if we recognize that. 

I sometimes wonder, what would it be if we lived in a world in which we each saw that in one another and really saw each other as whether you want to call it divine or humanity. But we really saw that humanness in one another. And would the world be different if we could interact with each other from that place? 

There's another verse in the Quran that says, that God is closer to you than your jugular vein. And that's another one I come back to really often. Because sometimes, in the Islamic tradition, there's a focus on divine, I don't know, foreignness or divine distance maybe. And sometimes, even kind of divine wrath rather than divine mercy. And at the same time, it's said on, in the Islamic tradition, "On the throne of God, my mercy precedes my wrath." 

And there's all these actually really deep and beautiful teachings around mercy. There's many names of God, but the ones that are recited every day are the ones on compassion and on mercy. And so part of my work, and I think my own inner reflection and the tradition, is really bringing forth that mercy and love of the divine that, again, really encompasses all of us. 

It's said in the Islamic tradition that the world was created from the breath of all merciful. And so again, this idea of breath that we're constantly present in that as well, but that's what really permeates our world. And so wanting to bring that in for myself and then for the people that I work with as well. 

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TYLER SPROUSE: Thank you both so much for joining us today for our first ever episode of the Meaning Makers of HDS podcast. It was such a pleasure to get to talk to you both and to hear your perspectives. Thank you so much. 

AILYA VAJID: Thank you. This has really been such a gift to connect and share and learn from one another. 

TYLER SPROUSE: Thank you for listening. I'm Tyler Sprouse. Tune in next time to Meaning Makers of HDS. 

Show notes:

Edited by Tyler Sprouse

Banner image by Kristie Welsh

Intro and outro music: "Morning in the Mountains," by Michael William Murray, courtesy of Extreme Production Music USA