Video: Yang Scholars 2025: Christian Nationalism in Global Perspective

February 27, 2025

The Yang Visiting Scholars in World Christianity program brings distinguished senior and junior scholars of world Christianity to Harvard Divinity School each year, opening up fresh perspectives, particularly from the global south.

David N. Hempton, Harvard University Distinguished Service Professor and Alonzo L. McDonald Family Professor of Evangelical Theological Studies at Harvard Divinity School, led a conversation with one of this year’s Yang Visiting Scholars. Nilay Saiya is Associate Professor of Public Policy and Global Affairs at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. He holds research interests in religion and global politics. He is author of Weapon of Peace: How Religious Liberty Combats Terrorism (Cambridge University Press, 2018) and The Global Politics of Jesus: A Christian Case for Church-State Separation (Oxford University Press, 2022). A group discussion followed.

This event took place on February 27, 2025.

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SPEAKER 1: Harvard Divinity School.

SPEAKER 2: Christian Nationalism in Global Perspective, February 27, 2025.

DAVID: OK, everybody. Welcome, and thanks for coming. So the run of show a bit will be I'll introduce our distinguished visitor, and Nilay will speak for 20 minutes, half an hour. And then we'll have a brief conversation here. And then we'll open it up for a wider conversation. And we promise to end before 3:30 So you can get on with your lives. OK, so I should begin, I think, by thanking XD and Nancy Yang for they're a wonderful philanthropy and enabling the Yang Scholars Program to thrive.

So, for the past several years, we've been able to bring two distinguished scholars from different parts of the world to help us understand world Christianity better. And next week, we'll be having a Radcliffe seminar where we'll have 16 visitors from all over the world coming to talk about world Christianity, where it's at, where it's going to, how to think better about it, and so on. So there's really exciting things happening around this topic.

And I'm particularly glad to welcome Nilay Saiya, who's one of the visiting Yang Scholars this year. Also great to see Jennifer Hughes here, who's also a visiting Yang Scholar. And Gina Zurlo, who has been a resident scholar in the past and runs a world Christian database, which we're finding out lots more about. And she's also taking an important part in running a conference next week. So without further ado, I'll introduce Nilay.

So, Nilay Saiya is Associate Professor of Public Policy and Global Affairs at Nanyang Technological University in Singapore. And as I've said, a Yang visiting scholar in World Christianity at Harvard Divinity School for this academic year, '24-25. He holds research interests in religion and global politics. He is the author of two important books, one, Weapon of Peace, How Religious Liberty Combats Terrorism, and Cambridge University Press, 2018. And then secondly, The Global Politics of Jesus, A Christian Case for Church-State Separation, which came out with Oxford University Press in 2022.

His peer-reviewed studies have appeared in journals such as Conflict Management and Peace Science, the European Journal of Public Policy, the Journal of Conflict Resolution, the Journal of Democracy, the Political Research Quarterly, Terrorism and Political Violence, among many others. And his public affairs commentary has appeared in Christianity Today, the EU Observer, Liberty Magazine, National Interest, USA Today, Slate, and many others. And his work has been supported by grants from the Mellon Foundation, the Research Foundation of the State University of New York, and the Singapore Ministry of Education.

He's taught at the University of Notre Dame, the State University of New York, Harvard University, and Nanyang Technological University. And he earned his PhD from the University of Notre Dame. So, Nilay, a very warm welcome to Harvard Divinity School, and we look forward very much to your talk, The Consequences of Global Christian Nationalism. Over to you.

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NILAY SAIYA: OK Thank you, David, for that very warm welcome. And I'd also like to thank the Yangs for their generous support of the Visiting Scholars Program. And also, Kevin Chimo for putting this event together. And thank you all for showing up. A great crowd today. OK, so the way I'm going to structure my talk is to proceed in three parts. In the first, I will discuss what Christian nationalism is. It's a very contentious topic. And it's important to know what we're talking about when we talk about Christian nationalism. So, I will give you my definition of Christian nationalism, then I'll talk about the globalization of Christian nationalism.

So, in the United States, we kind of have this belief that Christian nationalism is an American phenomenon. And point of fact, it's actually a global issue that is afflicting many countries around the world, not just the United States. And then finally, I'll spend the bulk of my time on the consequences of Christian nationalism. And here, I'll talk about three different consequences of Christian nationalism. I will first talk about the political consequences of Christian nationalism, followed by the social consequence. And then finally the spiritual consequence of Christian nationalism.

So, there are many other consequences as well, but I've picked out what I think are the three most important. And just to preview the argument, the political consequence of Christian nationalism is that it undermines democracy and promotes authoritarianism. The social consequence is that it encourages violence at the level of society. And the spiritual consequence of Christian nationalism is that it does great harm to the mission of the church itself. So I'm going to address all of these different consequences in the third part of my talk.

So, let's start with what Christian nationalism is. As I mentioned, it's a highly controversial topic, and there doesn't seem to be much agreement on what we're actually talking about. So let's define what Christian nationalism is. So at the most basic level, Christian nationalism is an ideology of Christian supremacy in society and politics. An ideology of Christian supremacy in society and politics. Christian nationalism is a political theology and cultural framework that advocates for the fusion of the Christian faith and a country's politics and civic life.

And Christian nationalism also calls for the privileging of a certain form of Christianity in the public square. So that's how I'm defining Christian nationalism here. It's a very specific kind of definition. Christian nationalism is both descriptive and prescriptive. Christian nationalists believe that their countries were founded as Christian nations. And they believe that their governments should take steps to keep it that way. So there's two different aspects here, descriptive aspect and a prescriptive aspect. And Christian nationalism has been linked to a number of social and political beliefs.

In the past 10 years, there have been many studies that have been conducted on the implications of Christian nationalism. So Christian nationalism has been linked to a wide array of social and political beliefs, including misogyny, authoritarianism, opposition to vaccines, anti-science views and pro violence. So nothing good, right? So we're going to get into this a little bit on the social and political consequences of Christian nationalism. So it is a political theology that matters greatly for outcomes in the real world.

And Christian nationalism also has growing appeal, and it's growing in political popularity. And one of the reasons it's growing in political popularity is because it's also growing in social popularity. So these two things feed off each other. So let's just take the example of the United States. Several national politicians have expressed support for Christian nationalist ideals, or they have openly identified as Christian nationalists. So you all are familiar with Marjorie Taylor Greene, the Congresswoman from Georgia. She became the first member of Congress to openly identify as a Christian nationalist.

And she said something along the lines of, I'm a proud Christian, and we should not be ashamed to say that we are Christian nationalists. But it's not like Marjorie Taylor Greene is just this fringe figure, and this doesn't have currency in other places in the US Congress. For example, Greene's fellow representatives, Louie Gohmert from Texas, Mary Miller of Illinois, Paul Gosar of Arizona. They all have espoused Christian nationalist goals. And we can even think of someone like Ron DeSantis of Florida, who he has not identified as a Christian nationalist, but he has championed Christian nationalist causes, as has Ted Cruz in Texas.

And last year, Josh Hawley, the junior Senator from Missouri, became the first Senator to identify as a Christian nationalist. So this is something that matters for real-world politics. And as I mentioned, one of the reasons why Christian nationalism is growing in political popularity is because it has a great deal of social appeal as well. In 2022, a Pew Research Center poll found that about 45% of Americans believe that the United States should be a Christian nation. Now, what people mean by a Christian nation can differ from person to person.

But then the Pew Research Center poll went deeper and it asked people, what do you mean by a Christian nation? And about half of those respondents said the United States legal system should be based on the Bible. So about 20%, 25% of the population believes that the US legal system should be biblically based. And you may or may not be familiar with these two books. They were both published in 2022. The first book, Christian Nationalism, A Biblical Guide to Taking Dominion and Discipling Nations, was written by Gab founder Andrew Torba, and a Minnesota pastor named Andrew Isgur.

And this was the first kind of pro-Christian nationalist book that was published in the United States. And in the first two weeks after being published, it had amassed about 500 reviews on Amazon, most of them positive. And at its peak, it reached the number three spot on the Amazon bestseller list. So that kind of shows how people are really interested in this issue. And they also support Christian nationalism as well. Then the second book is more of a philosophical case for Christian nationalism. It's called the Case for Christian Nationalism by Stephen Wolfe.

I taught a course on global Christian nationalism here at HDS in the fall, and I made my students read this book. And we all agreed it was a terrible book. One of the worst books you could possibly read. And I knew that going into the semester, but I made them read it anyways, because I think it's really important to understand what Christian nationalism is from a Christian nationalist. And so what I appreciated here is that Wolfe lays out the racism and misogyny and homophobia of Christian nationalism very clearly for everyone to see. And he makes no apologies for it. But that's what Christian nationalism is. And everyone needs to know what it is.

And then last year, there was this documentary that came out in theaters called God and Country. And this one was directed by the legendary filmmaker Rob Reiner. So if you haven't seen it, I know, David, you just saw this one yesterday, right? And he wasn't very impressed, I don't think. But if you don't know much about Christian nationalism, then it might be worth your time to watch this documentary. Now, all this might give the impression that Christian nationalism is a uniquely American problem, but that isn't the case at all.

Christian nationalism is afflicting countries all over the globe, whether it's the United States or Latin America, or Europe or Africa, or even Asia. I live in Singapore, and I have seen Christian nationalism in Singapore of all places. So it's something that has truly gone global. So let's just think of some examples here. The United States, Christian nationalism has been blamed for outcomes such as mass shootings, the overturning of Roe v Wade, hate crimes against minorities, and general political polarization. So that's what's happening in the United States.

But in Europe, we see a different form of Christian nationalism. Whereas the Christian nationalism in the United States tends to be more creedal in nature, European Christian nationalism is more about identity and belonging. So it's a marker of communal identity. So in the United States, Christian nationalism is kind based in this idea that the United States is in a special covenant with God. And if Americans reject their Christian roots, they will be at risk of losing their divine favor. That isn't necessarily the case in Europe. It's more of a civilizational type of nationalism that we're talking about there.

And then you find even more differences when you get to Russia. So in Russia, Vladimir Putin has forged a very close alliance between the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox church. And he's done this to consolidate his own hold on power, and to give his domestic and foreign policies an aura of transcendence. And that includes the war in Ukraine. No body in Russia has been more supportive of the war in Ukraine than the Russian Orthodox church.

And in Africa, we see different ethnic forms of Christian nationalism in places like Central African Republic and Uganda. So in Central African Republic, there's been an ethnic cleansing campaign that's been going on for the past decade or so. And very few people in the West know about this, but it's been a very serious campaign against Muslims. So entire villages and towns, and even cities, have been completely emptied of their Muslim communities. And they've been internally displaced, or they've had to flee to other countries. And at the root of the violence is a type of Christian nationalism.

And in Uganda, Christian nationalism has given rise to a so-called morality crusade. And that morality crusade has led directly to the violent persecution of the country's LGBT community. And many people have been physically attacked or even killed. And then finally, in Latin America's largest country, Brazil, Christian nationalism thrived during the presidency of Jair Bolsonaro. And he's one of the world's most ardent Christian nationalists. He's known as the Trump of the tropics. And he came to power thanks to the outpouring of support he received he received from Brazil's different Christian communities.

So here, you see some of the world's Christian nationalist leaders. Donald Trump in the United States, Viktor Orban in Hungary, Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, and Vladimir Putin in Russia. So this raises an interesting question about how Christian do you need to be in order to espouse Christian nationalism? So maybe we can talk about that during the Q&A. So finally, I will address the consequences of global Christian nationalism. In other words, why does it matter?

And as I mentioned, there are three different consequences of Christian nationalism. Political consequences, social consequences, and spiritual consequences. And there are likely other consequences, but I'll just hit on these three for now. So the political consequence of Christian nationalism is that it corrodes democracy. Not only does it corrode democracy, but it also supports authoritarianism. So how does this work? I believe that Christian nationalism corrodes democracy in three different ways.

First, it supports authoritarian leaders. So when leaders promise to protect the hegemony of Christianity in their countries, Christian nationalists on the ground often support them without reservation, even when these leaders are authoritarian leaning and they violate Democratic norms and institutions. So we can return here to the case of Brazil. When Bolsonaro ran for president in 2018, he ran on a campaign platform of Brazil before everything and God above everyone. And he received massive support from Evangelicals and also Conservative Catholics in Brazil.

And they rallied to him, even though he had made dozens of very troubling remarks during the election campaign. For example, he referred to Hitler as a great strategist. And he referred to Brazil's Indigenous communities as parasites. And yet because he promised to protect the hegemony of Christianity in Brazil, the Christian nationalists who supported him were happy to do so regardless of these kinds of comments that he was making. And perhaps that even made him more popular that he was saying these kinds of things.

And then when Bolsonaro took power, his regime was very strongly authoritarian in its nature. So after coming to power, Bolsonaro spoke very admiringly of the brutal military regime that had reigned in Brazil from 1964 to 1985. It was a very murderous regime. And he militarized his own cabinet. So half of his appointees came from the military. And one of his sons even recommended that he would revive a military-era decree that would have shut down the National and state legislatures, suspended civil rights and liberties, and banned political protest.

And all this happened without any outcry from Brazil's Evangelical and Catholic communities, or very little outcry. So that's the first way that Christian nationalism can corrode democracy. The second way is that it undermines equality. So think about what Christian nationalism is. It's an ideology of Christian hegemony. It wants Christian dominance over society and politics. So that means that by definition, it jettisons the principle of Democratic equality. For Christian nationalists, only certain people are considered legitimate citizens of a country, and those are the people who champion the Christian nationalist cause.

But for Christian nationalists, religious minorities are seen as a threat. And so they have no problem when it comes to restricting the rights of religious minorities in an attempt to protect the Christian heritage of their countries. So we can think here about Europe. In the name of preserving their Christian heritages, various European leaders have moved to restrict religious minorities. So we can think about three different sets of laws or policies where we see restrictions on religious minorities that don't apply to the majority Christian populations.

So, in some countries, like France, there has been a move to ban the Islamic headscarf, the hijab, or the burqa in public. So this is something that specifically targets Muslim minorities living in France and other countries. And then there have also been initiatives to ban the practice of ritual animal slaughter, as performed in the Jewish kosher and Islamic halal traditions. Again, something that doesn't affect Christians living in these countries, but only Jews and Muslims. And then finally, with less success, there have been attempts to ban the practice of male infant circumcision, which is required in both Judaism and Islam.

Again, none of these restrictions apply to Christians, only to the minority communities living in Europe, namely Muslims and Jews. And then perhaps most obviously, Christian nationalism corrodes democracy by threatening the peaceful transfer of power. So when Christian nationalist leaders openly challenge or threaten to challenge the outcome of free and fair elections, they do so with the full backing of their Christian nationalist supporters. And of course, the most obvious example here would be the January 6th, 2021 insurrection.

And I would argue that the insurrection was a largely Christian nationalist riot. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that. Among the rioters you would see wooden crosses and banners reading, Jesus saves. The rioters, they knelt in God in prayer, asking him to save the country from impending demise. Worship music blared from loudspeakers. And a group of insurrectionists made their way into the Senate chamber. And perhaps the most recognizable figure of the insurrection, Jacob Angeli Chansley, offered a prayer on behalf of the rioters and for the country.

And if you don't know who Chansley is, he is the guy who wore the horns, the bare-chested, so-called QAnon Shaman. And so when he led this prayer, he thanked God for allowing the insurrectionists to take back their country and to get rid of the communists and the globalists and the traitors within the government. So those are three ways by which Christian nationalism corrodes democracy. So now let's talk about the social consequences of Christian nationalism. Again, there are many, but I think perhaps the most important is that it promotes violence at the level of society.

So here I want to focus on the United States. I want to talk about four ways that Christian nationalism promotes violence in America. So the first way is that American Christian nationalists tend to also be biblical literalists. And they see direct parallels between American Christians today and the ancient Israelites. And just as the Israelites miraculously conquered their enemies, American Christians today may also have to undertake sacred violence in order to fight against the enemies of God. And Christian nationalists see themselves as operating under the same providence of God that guided the Israelites in the Hebrew scriptures. So they see themselves as a new kind of Israel. This isn't an all Christian nationalist in the US, but a sizeable proportion.

And then the second way that Christian nationalism promotes violence is the belief that the American founding fathers and the revolution were divinely inspired. So they glorify the violence of the revolution. And they believe that they have a responsibility to perpetuate the vision of the founding fathers. And that may include the use of patriotic violence if necessary. Third is the idea of cosmic war. And just to give full credit where it's due, this idea is not mine. It comes from Mark Jurgensmeyer, the famous sociologist of religion. And he coined this phrase back in the 1990s.

And the idea here is that Christian nationalists believe that they are engaged in a literal battle of good versus evil. So if you believe that you are on the side of God, then your enemies by definition, must be satanic. So if you can paint your enemies as satanic, demonically driven, it becomes much easier to justify violence against them.

And then finally, in the United States, Christian nationalism has made common cause with certain fringe, violent, White supremacist groups, like the Three Percenters, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, and QAnon. And the common thread, weaving all of these different fringe groups together is Christianity, the belief that the United States should be a White Christian nation.

So finally, I will address the spiritual consequence of Christian nationalism. And this is the most paradoxical consequence is that Christian nationalism actually does great harm to the church itself. So I did this study a couple years ago, and I wanted to see where Christianity was growing around the world, where it was declining. And what I found is that countries where there is a close relationship between church and state, where there is strong support or privileges for Christianity compared to other religions, actually experience Christian decline.

It's where Christianity has to compete on an equal playing field with other religions that we see Christianity growing and flourishing. So this is something we might call a paradox of privilege in contexts where Christianity is favored by the state, it ends up declining. In context, where it has to compete on an even playing field, it ends up thriving. So how is it that Christian nationalism harms the church? Three different ways. First, Christian nationalism is a distraction. It's a distraction. Why? Because instead of being focused on their missions of evangelization and bringing hope to a broken world, Christian nationalists have to focus at least some of their time and energy and resources on staying in the good graces of Caesar.

So, they bring together the different spheres of authority that Jesus had previously separated. So it's a distraction, and they have to consume their resources, retaining the favor of various political leaders. The second way that Christian nationalism harms the church is that it is a distortion of the gospel. So presented in the New Testament, the Kingdom of God is something that is open to everyone who wishes to participate in it, regardless of their class or gender or race or ethnicity or nationality. So it's open to everyone. It's inclusive. But Christian nationalism is exclusive in nature, and it twists the gospel message, suggesting that the favor of God belongs only to certain groups in society. So this is a direct contradiction of the gospel message.

And then finally, Christian nationalism is a form of idolatry. So with nationalism, the highest source of authority and the highest source of identity is the nation state. So this does not coexist very easily with religion, because religion holds that the ultimate source of authority is God. So loyalty to God becomes overshadowed by loyalty to nation. So these are just three ways in which Christian nationalism harms the church. And again, we can think of this as a paradox of privilege. So I'm going to conclude my remarks right now, and I'll finish by saying this.

The church thrives when it transcends national boundaries, promoting love, justice, and unity. Nationalism, when unchecked, can distort these values, leading to moral compromise, division, and loss of spiritual integrity. The church is called to be a voice for all people, not a servant of nationalist agendas. Thank you.

[APPLAUSE]

DAVID: So thanks, Nilay, very much for a very clear and well-presented look at this topic of Christian nationalism. I guess the question that first comes to mind is-- I mean, what you've done, I think, unusually and well, is to show that this is not just an American phenomenon. That obviously, you give lots of other examples from Europe and Russia and Africa and Brazil. Which leads, I think, to the obvious question, why? So is there some structural underpinnings that are common in these different places? I mean, given that a lot of focus and attention, obviously, in the United States is on the American version.

But should we be looking for deeper structural underpinnings that are maybe not exactly the same from place to place, but allow you at least to build up some sort of social and political topology of what are the conditions under which Christian nationalism thrives?

NILAY SAIYA: Yeah, that's a very important question. And the way I see it is Christian nationalism, wherever it's found, tends to be a backlash. And it's a backlash against two different things brought on by globalization. The first is, I guess, the decline of Christianity in the West. So, of course, this has been going on in Europe for literally hundreds of years. But the United States stood out as the great example, or counterexample, to secularization until recently.

And now, the United States has been secularizing at a faster rate than any country in the world. And so this has led to new cultural mores surrounding gender and sexuality, and so forth, race. And so I think Christians are feeling kind of unmoored from everything that they found familiar. And the second dynamic is, as Christianity has been declining in these kinds of countries, religious diversity has been increasing. And that's a result of immigration. And so I think Christian nationalism is a backlash against both of these things.

And so what the Christian nationalists are trying to do is to assert their dominance, the dominance of once hegemonic Christian traditions in their countries. And of course, when religious immigrants come to new countries, they don't leave their religions behind. They want equal rights, too. But if you're accustomed to privilege, then equality actually looks like oppression. And so what you see in some Christian quarters is they are claiming-- Christian nationalists are claiming to be the ones who are persecuted. Not the ones doing the persecution, but the ones who are actually being persecuted. So you see a victim mindset there.

It's the exact opposite of what's actually happening. But I think this is the kind of narrative that Christian nationalists tell themselves, and it spreads throughout society. So I think those are two really important things. The decline of Christianity in the West, increasing religious diversity. And also thanks to technology and social media. We also see, I guess we could say, the exporting and the importing of Christian nationalism. So think about American Christian nationalists. When they look at the world, who do they want to emulate? Individuals like Vladimir Putin and Russia. He's very popular in Christian nationalist circles today. Viktor Orban in Hungary.

But the United States also exports Christian nationalism to other countries as well. So I mentioned in my talk the morality crusade in Uganda. That crusade has been sponsored by American evangelical pastors. They received the Ugandan-- religious leaders have received a great deal of financial support from their American counterparts. So I think all of these are structural dynamics that are underpinning the rise of Christian nationalism, both in the West and also in the developing world.

DAVID: Thank you. Those are good points. I mean, both in your answer and in your talk. You mentioned information streams and where people get information from and social media, or the internationalization of particular countries, models or whatever. So how important is it, do you think, in the rise of Christian nationalism in different parts of the world, is this kind of circulating media sometimes around social media or particular information streams? Whether from country to country or between countries, just how important do you think it is, how people get their information about what's happening around them?

I mean, I'm thinking particularly-- I mean, even one of the things in the [INAUDIBLE] country program that was kind of interesting was the importance of a whole bunch of organizations which are connected with one another through social media. And they read one another's postings. And it's a bit of a bubble in a way. And so I'm just kind of wondering how that subculture of information dissemination is also a problem that's going to be hard to confront?

NILAY SAIYA: I should start by saying that I don't have any social media presence. I don't have Facebook or Twitter or anything. So I can't really speak to much of this because I don't know what's happening on these platforms. But I think this is one of the new facets of global Christian nationalism that differentiates it from previous waves is the internationalization. That the International connections that have developed on social media. So it's very easy now for Christian nationalists in say, Poland or Russia to shape the views of their American counterparts and vice versa. And they frequently allude to each other's experiences and whatnot.

So I think this is something that's new. And the problem is I'm not sure how that can be combated. Because if you believe in freedom of expression, freedom of speech, then this is the natural outcome. So it's a very thorny issue.

DAVID: So maybe just to move to the American-- I mean, again, referring back to the documentary, God and Country. One thing that struck me about it was that in some of the early formation of Christian nationalism here, going back into the '60s, '70s, '80s-- 1960s, '70s, '80s. You have these kind of estimable figures, whether you agree or disagree with them, like Tony Perkins or Paul Weyrich or James Dobson or Ralph Reed. People with suits and ties and ideas which we may disagree with, but at least are articulated in a kind of rational discourse around abortion rights or around education systems or what's taught in the schools or family values, whatever it might happen to be.

But there's obviously somewhat of a difference between that and the more violent wings of the Proud Boys and so on. So what was striking about the video sequences of the January 6th is that, in a way, these two things had come together a little bit. There were these kind of somber prayer meetings and the ritual parading around the Capitol building seven times, like the walls of Jericho and so on. And then there was also people there with militia connections, with arms, with a determination to break in.

And I was just kind of wondering, how well do these things coexist? Are there internal tensions here? Or is this simply a wraparound, bigger movement now that it's been just somewhat taken over by more extreme versions? You hear what I'm saying? I'm not defending necessarily the earlier version of this. All I'm saying is that there was a lot of political calculation. They tried to get interviews at the White House. They tried to influence elections. That versus a more violent form, I guess, is what I'm trying to get at here and how you think about that.

NILAY SAIYA: I mean, there are a lot of different ways to take this question. The interesting thing is that the individuals you mentioned, the James Dobson's, the Weyrich's, the Tony Perkins, they're all Christian nationalists. They all want the same thing. They want the establishment of a Christian nation. But I think in the American context, this is one of the issues that arise in the literature that we have this kind of monolithic understanding of Christian nationalism.

And we kind of assume that Christian nationalists are all the same. They're all driven by the same kinds of beliefs and theologies. They all have the same goals. That isn't the case at all. And in the case of the US, we have different varieties or strains of Christian nationalism. So I've identified three kind of dominant strains of Christian nationalism. The first is what I call charismatic dominionism. So charismatic dominionism, this is my term, it comes from the New Testament. Charisma from the Greek, meaning gift of the Holy Spirit.

So charismatic Christians believe in the move of the Holy Spirit. Supernatural signs and wonders, miraculous healings, words of knowledge, and prophecy speaking in tongues, and so forth. But that term, charismatic dominionism, also has a second part to it, and that's dominion. And charismatic dominionists believe that their version of the Christian faith should be dominant in society. And so they seek to instill government with their values and hope that the entire country will eventually look like they do.

And so the most important movement within this charismatic dominionism is what's known as the new apostolic reformation. It's a highly controversial movement in the United States, consisting of loosely connected, hyperkeratotic churches. And at the root of the new apostolic reformation is a very peculiar theology known as the Seven Mountains mandate. Perhaps you've heard about this. But it's the belief that charismatic Christians-- not all Christians, not Catholics, but only charismatic Christians, have a divine responsibility to take control of seven different institutions found in American society.

So the family, religion, education, entertainment, media, business, and government. And the most important of those mountains is, of course, government. So that's the charismatic dominionist movement. Now, in addition to that, we also have another Protestant Christian nationalist movement in the United States. Not nearly as successful as charismatic dominionism. Charismatic dominionists have actually made inroads in the governing apparatus. So you're probably familiar with Paula White Cain. She was Trump's faith advisor during his first term, and she has recently been tapped to head the newly created faith office in the White House.

She is a charismatic dominionist. And there are individuals within the government like Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, Ted Cruz. They're also charismatic dominionists. In fact, Mike Johnson flies a charismatic dominionist flag outside of his office and Appeal to Heaven Flag. So he doesn't try to hide anything. So that's the first version of American Christian nationalism. The second is what we might call Calvinist nationalism, and this is popular in certain reformed and Baptist circles. And of course, Calvinist nationalists, they draw on the thinking of John Calvin.

So I think this is probably more typical of the individuals you mentioned, like the Tony Perkins and so forth. So Calvinist nationalists, like Calvin, they believe that the Civil government has a responsibility to uphold correct Christian doctrine, and to punish blasphemy and heresy. So they essentially see the government as the extension of the church. And this isn't nearly as popular as charismatic dominionism. But that book that I mentioned, the Case for Christian Nationalism, was written by a Calvinist nationalist. And the publisher of that book, Cannon Press, is the publishing arm of a church in Moscow, Idaho, Christ Church.

And that church is pastored by a very important figure named Doug Wilson. And Wilson believes that he can make Moscow, Idaho the country's first Christian city. And so he's actually been somewhat successful. He has this massive church with thousands of congregants. He has a K through 12 school. He's developed a homeschooling curriculum so he can spread his message throughout the rest of the country. So yeah, this book was published by Cannon Press, which is the publishing arm of Christ Church. And then finally, we have a Catholic version of Christian nationalism, integralism.

And integralists believe that Vatican II was a mistake. So if you know anything about Catholic history, for much of the history of the Catholic Church, various popes opposed liberalism and democracy and human rights. They believed that liberalism was a threat to the one true church. And so they opposed liberalism and democracy until Vatican II. And we saw a sea change in the Catholic Church. It went from an opponent of democracy to a proponent of democracy. And Catholicism was actually behind a lot of the third wave of democratization since the 1960s.

But now we see a resurgent movement within Catholicism itself that actually says that the popes were right. That the Catholic Church and state, should be integrated. And liberalism is a heresy. And liberalism is not only a heresy, but it's also dangerous because it threatens the one true church. And integralism has had no success so far, because it's largely confined to a very small group of Catholic intellectuals. But it's going to be interesting to see what happens in the future, because JD Vance, the vice president of the United States, of course, is a conservative Catholic. I don't know if he has any integralist leanings, but perhaps integralists see this as a moment of opportunity.

And so it's going to be very interesting over the next four years to see what happens. The final point that-- I know I've been droning on and on about this.

DAVID: No, this is great.

NILAY SAIYA: Something we have to keep in mind-- and this goes back to your point-- is, what are the divisions within the American Christian nationalist movement? And will those divisions come to light? So all three of these different versions of Christian nationalism are driven by very different theologies. So the reformed Christians, the Calvinist nationalists, they don't like charismatic Christians very much. At least their theology. And so after Paula White was tapped to become the head of the new faith office, there was a lot of uproar among Calvinist nationalists.

And they said, this can't be. Paula white holds a radical, heretical theology. And she is absolutely the wrong person to be heading this faith office. And so it's possible that the American Christian nationalist movement could fracture in the future. So far, it hasn't. But that doesn't mean that it can't happen down the road.

DAVID: Well, thank you. That's a really helpful answer, actually, to see these different strands. And it kind of leads to another question that I think came up also from the documentary. And that is how deeply serious a threat is there? And is it growing? I think the sense that the program conveyed and a little bit with your answer on these three strands. Is that there's a lot of formidably well organized organizations, a lot of money and a lot of growing support amongst certain political sectors of the country.

And there was a chilling sense of deep unease among some of the people who'll be familiar to some of our audience, people like Anthea Butler and Kristen Dumas, and others, historians, sociologists saying that this is really a frightening thing. It's well organized. It's well funded. It's grown in political power and influence. It's got access to the White House and to Congress, and so on and so on. So do you have a sense-- so this is a two-part question.

One is, do you have a sense that this is something that's with us and will get stronger? And the second part is, how can it be resisted, given that it seems to have a formidable amount of money and organizational support? So, I mean, I guess to amplify the first question a little bit, there are those who say, oh, well, the American guardrails will ultimately prevail. The Constitution, the separation of powers, free media, secularization itself. A whole bunch of things will make it ultimately difficult for Christian nationalism to be a very major force in the organization of this country.

But do you see it that way? And how do you see it being resisted?

NILAY SAIYA: I mean, these are great questions. It's difficult to know, because this is one of the new facets of Christian nationalism today, is that we actually see it taking root in democracies. And so this is something that's new. It's not just co-opted by authoritarians, but we also see it in countries that have a very long history of democracy, including the United States, the world's first experiment in secular democracy. So if we want an indication of what we can expect in the future, I think it might be helpful to zoom out and take a look at what's happened in other religious traditions.

So if you're familiar with the case of India, of course, there's been a religious nationalist movement in that country. That kind of resembles Christian nationalism in the United States and elsewhere. And religious nationalists in India are motivated by an ideology called Hindutva. And so just like Christian nationalists in the United States seek to make the US a Christian nation, Hindutva activists in India seek to Hinduise the country, make it a Hindu country to the exclusion of all religious minorities, including Christians and Muslims and Sikhs and so forth.

Now, what's interesting is that for much of its history, India existed as the world's largest democracy, save for a brief period in the 1970s during the so-called emergency under Indira Gandhi. But it was well on its way to remaining the world's largest democracy until the rise of Hindutva. And that religious movement has completely thrown India into chaos. And according to democracy watchdog groups like Freedom House and Pauly D and so forth, India is no longer a democracy today. I mean, that would have been completely unthinkable 20 years ago. And it's largely as a result of this religious nationalist movement in India.

So it just goes to show that religious nationalists can do a great deal of damage wherever they appear, including in long-standing democracies like India and the United States. So, I mean, of course, we hope that the US doesn't go this way, but I'm worried. And I think that we should all be worried. In 2005, the five largest democracies in the world were the United States, India, Brazil, Indonesia, and Japan. Those were the five largest democracies in the world. Today, four of those countries, the United States, Indonesia, India, and Brazil have lower levels of democracy than they did in 2005. Why?

Because every one of these countries has experienced the rise of an anti-democratic, religious nationalist movement. And so that's very concerning. And that includes the United States as well. The only country that's managed to survive as a democracy at the same level today as it was in 2005, is Japan. And it's because Japan hasn't experienced the rise of religious nationalism as we've seen in other countries. At least that's one explanation. So your second question now is, how do we combat Christian nationalism? What can we do about it?

And I'm not sure that there's a simple answer to this question, but I'm reminded after the attacks of September 11, 2001, one of the major questions that was being asked is why aren't Muslim leaders speaking out against violence in Islam. Now, leaving aside the fact that there were Muslim leaders all over the world who were speaking out against violence in Islam, I think we need to ask a similar kind of question today of certain Christian communities in the United States. Why are Christian leaders not speaking out against Christian nationalism? Some of them certainly are.

But the problem is these voices are not located within the traditions where Christian nationalism is coming from. So it's easy for an Episcopalian to speak out against Christian nationalism because they're not Christian nationalists. But if you really want to combat Christian nationalism, then there has to be an outcry from within these Christian nationalist constituencies. So it has to come from Evangelical churches, fundamentalist churches, Pentecostal churches, charismatic churches. These are the places where Christian nationalism thrives.

And the problem is, you don't find many leading voices within these circles that see this as a problem. They see Christian nationalism as a positive thing. They think it's good for the country. But there is one group that is doing good work in this respect, and that group is called Christians Against Christian Nationalism. And that includes some leading Evangelical voices as well. So they have a website if you'd like to check that out. I would highly encourage you to do so. They have a wonderful guiding statement of principles, and that lays out why this group rejects Christian nationalism.

And they do so on explicitly Christian grounds. So if there's any hope for resisting Christian nationalism, I think that's it.

DAVID: Yeah. It was a very moving end to the documentary by William Barber, who said that Christian nationalists are loud about things that the Bible is relatively silent about, and silent about things that the Bible is relatively loud about. Which is a kind of interesting way of framing it. I mean, what you said about that ironically or paradoxically, Christianity thrives in places where there's no state church or overt political connection and diminishes in-- and this was well known in the 18th century. This is why populist Evangelicals and made common cause with enlightenment philosophers in getting rid of the church-state connection in the early American Republic.

And it seems such a shame that educational message seems to make no headway, that there seems to be this notion that to get access to political power and to do what Charles Dickens calls to try and make people religious by main force, it just doesn't work. And so it's not even just theologically not very happy tale, but pragmatically, it just doesn't work. And so maybe just one more comment, and then I'll open it up to others. I mean, this is from my Irish background a little bit, having done an early book on the rise of Christian nationalism and in Northern Ireland, actually way back. This was 30 or 40 years ago.

But in Ireland, you could make an argument that some forms of Christian nationalism were good. And I'm thinking really about Irish Republican Catholic Christian nationalism, which was mobilized against what they considered to be colonial British. So, in other words, to use religion and Christianity or churches as a base from which to attack colonial oppression. So, I mean, I'm nervous about this a little bit because it obviously does also lead to violence. I mean, the Irish Easter Rising of 1916 and people like Pearce and so on saying that to shed blood for the country is a good thing, and paralleling it with the shedding of Christ's blood on the cross.

That this is a purification that the country has to go through in order to get rid of this. So I'm not either defending or attacking this. I'm simply stating it that in some places, Christian nationalism has been employed by groups as a way of overthrowing or resisting a form of oppression. So I guess my question-- I don't think there's an answer to this, really, but what I'm just sort of vaguely speculating around that is Christian nationalism always a terrible thing because of all the points you've very convincingly made?

Or are there moments when some form of-- maybe Christian nationalism isn't a good term for it, but in some ways that churches can be used, or Christianity used, as a way of have of attacking something evil or perceived to be Evil, given that people's definition of evil is very malleable. So I know Irish history is not your forte, and that this is not-- but it's a kind of interesting way to think at least, because I did my book on a form of Christian nationalism, which is more common now in the United States. And people like Ian Paisley and the Irish context, he was educated at Bob Jones University in the United States, as were some other of the-- but anyway, for what it's worth.

NILAY SAIYA: Yeah, I won't pretend to know more about Ireland than you do. But what's interesting about the Irish case is that you see two different forms of Christian nationalism. So you have the Catholic nationalism of the Republic of Ireland. And then you have a competing Protestant version in Northern Ireland. Whether there are good forms of Christian nationalism, if there are, they are highly unique and you don't see them very often. So maybe one positive example would be Poland in the 1980s.

DAVID: Yeah.

NILAY SAIYA: So you could make an argument that Catholic nationalism was very important to the anti-communist struggle in Poland. But was that really Christian nationalism? In my view, Christian nationalism always has an exclusivity to it. And it seeks to privilege a certain form of Christianity in the public square. And I think that version of Christian nationalism is what you see with far more prevalence than any positive forms of Christian nationalism. I'm not saying they don't exist. But if they do exist, they tend to be very few and far between. And the same is true of every other religious tradition as well, not just Christianity.

DAVID: Yeah. It's interesting the way in which-- I mean, I'll shut up with this-- but the Poland example or the Irish example, where some people might say that this is Christian patriotism. But then the Christian nationalists here see themselves as advocates of Christian patriotism, which is obviously also a malleable concept. But anyway talk too much.

NILAY SAIYA: Could I just say something on that point?

DAVID: Sure.

NILAY SAIYA: I think a very good litmus test for Christian nationalism is how they see and treat minorities. Do they treat them and see them as equal citizens in the life of the nation? Or do they see them as threats that need to be done away with? So at least in the case of Poland, that wasn't necessarily the case.

DAVID: Right. Yeah. We're probably a little bit out of time. Are you sure? We're kind of-- 3:31. I promised to finish at 3:30. Thanks so much for coming, and both for your presentation and for your really terrific answer to our questions. And this is a very big and important topic. And I particularly appreciate the way that you frame it internationally, and also frame it a little bit, that there are political, social, but also spiritual dimensions about how this plays out. And so I think for all of those reasons, we're really grateful for you being with us and for speaking to us today. So thank you very much. Yeah.

[APPLAUSE]

SPEAKER 2: Sponsor Yang Visiting Scholars in Global Christianity.