Hope Podcast: Featuring Jamie Feinberg, MDiv Candidate

HIATT O'CONNOR: Jamie, thanks for joining us. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Thanks for having me, Hiatt. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: So I think to start, we'll just do the usual. Can you just tell us a little bit about where home is for you and maybe a brief spiritual autobiography if you're willing? 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, spiritual autobiography. That is not really in my lexicon, but I'll give you what I got. I grew up in Boston, Brookline and Newton, technically, and I went to a prep school around here just on the other side of Cambridge. So this is more or less home for me. 

This is my old stomping grounds, but I spent eight years away from here, which was really great in many ways. And it's also really great to be back home. I went to college in California at Pomona College, which I loved. And I think it saved me from myself a bit because it gave me the chance to be a really serious student. 

And it was back in college where I connected with my Judaism in a way that I didn't know possible. To me, growing up as a secular Jew, spirituality, religiosity, these were not really parts of the equation. Temple was something we went to once a year and it was pulling teeth. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

It was like you had to go to Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. And that was it. That was the extent of my religion. I was bar mitzvahed, mostly because my siblings were. And my dad was. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It was just like we were carriers of a tradition, and that was the extent of it. I never really realized until I got to college how much my ethos growing up was infused with Judaism. The idea of having political arguments at the dinner table, I think, or if we're talking about social justice at the dinner table, this was something I didn't was particularly Jewish. But I think it is. Or at least maybe in my experience. 

Anyway, fast forward, I'm at college. I was doing the thing where you go to college and you become an economics major because that's what you do in college, because then you can get a good job. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Right. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And then I took a class my sophomore fall called Philosophical Responses to the Holocaust with a Lebanese-an scholar named Oona Eisenstadt. And my eyes were opened in a way to what contemporary continental Jewish thought looked like, to what philosophy looked like. I went to one of those colleges where the philosophy department did not entertain critical theory. They-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Really? 

JAMIE FEINBERG: The said, religious studies do handle critical theory. We do German idealism and analytical US philosophy. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Wow! 

JAMIE FEINBERG: So I wound up being, I guess you could call it a philosophy major, but it was in religious studies and I just loved it. I fell in love with this particular professor, but then also the rest of the professor at Pomona in religious studies. And yet I because everyone else was going to New York and working in finance or consulting, I just had my blinders on and figured how wrong could my friends be? And went and did that. And I didn't love it. 

I quickly switch to from the jacket and tie Midtown Manhattan five days a week, 8:00 AM to a tech startup. And I worked there for two years doing business operations and stuff like that. And my religiosity and my spiritual journey kind of took a backseat to being in my early 20s and in New York, which was really fun, but ultimately left me spiritually bereft. 

And this really came to a head when I went down to Georgia for five months to work on a political campaign in 2024. That was remarkably, I guess, really only like a year and a half ago. And it was really challenging. And that's how I wound up coming back to Divinity School, because I was thinking really hard about what I wanted to do after this campaign. 

And I thought, I'm still growing as a man. And I thought about what was really important to me and the part of my life where I felt most fulfilled and religious studies really stood out, and I felt lucky enough to have a serious interest. Not a lot of people-- I don't know if you know this, not a lot of people have interests. Some people just go through the world without interests. And I have one. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

So I figured I really ought to go and do the thing and pursue it. And it's a scary thing. It's a lot easier to cordon-off the most interesting and passionate parts of your life into a private part. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And going and pursuing religious studies for me was really—people, a lot of Christians will talk about surrender. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It was like that. And so my spirituality, I think, relates to this intellectual threat in Judaism and also to this idea that what I'm doing here at Divinity School is really just surrendering to that intellectual thread and pursuing it in whichever way it takes me. Which is, I mean, not great for my anxiety because I'm worried about the future, but good, I think, for the way I feel fulfilled in my work. 

And sometimes I have these days where it just feels like everything's clicked. And that those are the days where I really feel rewarded for having come to HDS. And I think that I'm looking—for those listening, the second question is what brought you to HDS? And so I feel like I just jumped right into that. But I'll stop talking now. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Well, no, that's actually a wonderful segue that I'm going to postpone for a moment because when I asked the first question you said spiritual autobiography is not quite in your lexicon, and then you happen to slip in a very into a very earnest and I think, pretty powerful version of what I would call a spiritual autobiography. And I think in all you said, especially about surrendering to an intellectual thread and following an intellectual passion, I think it bridges a pretty important gap that, well, I personally don't even think there's really a gap there. 

But often we assume and act as if there is a gap between intellectual pursuits and spiritual or religious pursuits. When really, for me and I think somewhat for you—I don't want to put words in your mouth, they're very braided together. In a way that maybe those outside of the religious studies field or those outside of even the Divinity School, I don't what you would call this bubble or playground often assume that there is a strong distinction between or between those two. 

And even at Harvard University, more broadly, when I've taken classes in the philosophy department and they ask, what school I'm coming from and I say the Divinity School, I get a little side glance of oh, do you have chops? Can you actually read analytically and think analytically? Well, it's actually much more interrelated than you would suspect. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, I think I've definitely noticed that. But I want to come back to maybe just even where I'm at. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah, please don't let me— 

JAMIE FEINBERG: —in my—because it's related. I think for me, there seems to maybe be a difference between faith and rationality, between reason and revelation. And when I'm here and thinking, I really ought to develop a system of faith. I think I overlook the fact that my faith can be based in intellectual structures, intellectual proofs. And I'll just say earlier today, I was in a class and the philosophy department at the college on critical theory, and critical theory wants to take the old way of looking at subjectivity and objectivity as two separate things and wants to unite them through dialectic. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And still be able to say something constructive and critical about the world in which we live, in the time in which we live it. But in order to do that, it still needs to have reason. And reason from German idealism depends, according to Kant, in the split between subject and object. For Hegel, he kind of does this hand-wavy thing. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

And this is the same thing that my professor today after class, when I went and asked him. I was like, so if the whole entire project of critical theory depends on reason, if the buck stops with reason. How are the critical theorists having their cake and eating it too? And he like Hegel, did this hand-wavy thing where he said, "Well, Hegelian idealism is really the ability to be objective and subjective simultaneously." 

HIATT O'CONNOR: The synthesis of the two. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And yeah, and through dialectic, blah, blah, blah, blah blah. And I was sitting there and I was like, so faith. So you have faith. And essentially, I mean, maybe I should read Hegel. I should definitely read Hegel. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

But I was like, this is—OK. So reason can be an epistemological footing for me. That is really a footing in faith. If I want to believe that people can make claims about the world and use their intellect, then that can be as I am in conversation with you right now, and then over the last couple of months and moving forward in my time at Divinity School, the thought is, OK, I now have a pillar of my faith. Reason can be one of them. Reason can be part of my system of faith. 

And I think a lot of people outside the Div School, they see these things as unrelated. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah the gap. Yeah. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: But I think the more you read German idealism, or not even, if you just read philosophy, most of these people had God. Most of them had some backstop where you can go from there. I mean, there's a great quote from Buber I read literally two days ago, which is also a informing the way that I'm thinking about faith. He said, "To believe,"-- I'm" probably going to mess it up. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Go ahead. Paraphrase. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It's basically first you must understand. Then you can believe. So in order to believe must first understand. And so it's walking—I think, and I'm probably misquoting and misunderstanding, but I think it's pointing to this idea that there is a progression to belief that goes through understanding. And I think a lot of people have different ways of developing. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Absolutely. Yes. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: But for me that really resonated because, like I said, this intellectual thread that starts with Judaism, which is a religion based around questioning and contradictions and holding contradictions together, at least as far as I understand it. So caveat. I think the upshot for me could be a system of faith that feels more grounded, a system of faith that is grounded in things that I feel that I've understood. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah. It's a certain kind of trust. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, I think its trust. Yeah I think it is a certain kind of trust. A question I often get here at Divinity School is, are you a man of faith. Not really. That often in certain situations. I'm in a preaching and worship class with almost exclusively Christians who are learning how to preach the Bible. And I think everyone knows it by now, but I still feel this challenge where it's like, I'm learning how to give sermons, but I'm a secular Jew. 

And for me, really, there's no difference between being a secular Jew and a Jew. Yeah, there probably is for many other Jews. But from where I'm sitting, I have to think really hard. What am I going to preach? And what am I hoping to develop in my time here that I feel empowered enough to stand up in front of people and say, this is what I believe and why you should believe it too. So that's the project. That's the project that I'm on. And I think there's something really powerful in being able to be over there. And I'm gesturing to where the college and the rest of the University is and here, which allows you to build these connections. It's great to be able to start my day in critical theory, where reason is not a myth and something really real, and then come over here and have a conversation with you about the relationship between intellect and tradition. intellect and faith, 

HIATT O'CONNOR: And to come back to a place like HDS, where for many, many people, God or the transcendent, however you'd like to put it, is also not a myth. So for you, going to the college and for you personally, reason is not a myth. And then you come back over here. And for many people, the God that they're preaching about, or the faith that they're preaching about, for them is not a hand-wavy myth thing either. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: These are real things that we can believe in. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Exactly. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And I think also for a lot of people here, if you talk to them and you say, what is-- if you actually say, what are you praying to? What is your conception of God? You're not going to get pantheistic guy in the cloud on-- guy in sky on cloud, you're not going to get that. 

You're going to get something about the ethically infinite space between the self and the other. You're going to get something about the natural world. You're going to get something that is a little bit more a little bit more intellectually complex than just oh, God, is the bearded person who tells us what's right and wrong. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: And I think that's just more realistic across the board. If we were going to go ask people around the street and they were and they felt safe enough to speak on something, that is, one very close to the heart, but two, being so close to the heart, very vulnerable to speak about. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah. I think there's this caricature of religion and religiosity. That, and I don't want to cast aspersions, but I think a lot of the most refined intellectuals in the hard sciences have this idea of religion as something that is not intellectually rigorous, but in fact, is upon further investigation. And I think that's one thing, as I'm sitting here having this conversation, I'm thinking, this is something I'd like to do more of in the future. 

And really, this being having a conversation about—I guess it's good that I'm in Divinity School because I'm saying, have conversations about theology. But I think understanding how people understand the divine, particularly in a place like HDS where there are so many different views of Divinity. Now I'm thinking what classes I should take next semester so that I can—maybe someone's teaching conceptions of the divine. That seems like a course title,right? 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It does seem like a course title, but I am not privy. I'm also graduating, so I'm not really looking to the next semesters through the course catalog. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Fair enough. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Well, thanks for that. All of what you said. There's so much there. And I have a feeling that a lot of folks listening will identify with a lot of what you said. Especially, there's something you mentioned earlier about the surrendering to the intellectual thread that you're so passionate about and surrendering to a passion in the first place. It is a bit of a leap to really go into it, full tilt. 

I had to do that a couple of years ago. I had to come to terms with that. I say a couple of years ago like it was recent, but it was quite a while ago now. And to be able to do and to be able to articulate it for yourself, and then when you come here, you're asked to articulate it to other people a lot is quite a vulnerable thing. 

I don't want to say it can be imposing, but it certainly asks a lot of us,you and me and everyone else here, to be able to articulate it not just to other people, because other people is one thing, we can find ways to say it in 10 words or less by the time you're in your first end of your first year. But to continue to articulate it and continue the project of articulating it for yourself, I think is a really powerful effect of just being here and going through the courses and meeting people and going to community events. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, I think especially, and this is maybe more about my upbringing as well, but I come from a world where you go to medical school, business school or law school. And looking around at my friends from high school and even my friends from college, that is pretty much standard across the board. Probably greater emphasis on business school. And it does require a level of confidence at first to be able to explain to your family like, this is something that is important to me. 

And then once—if you have their support can do. I think that's another pillar of my faith. Seriously, would be family because once you have buy-in and support from your family, and even if you don't at first, that is really, really important. And then everything starts to feel easy. 

I'll give you just an example. I had a friend, actually one of my best friends, who I spent some time with over the break who's at business school, and he never really understood why I went to Divinity School. He didn't me as well in college. A lot of my friends who knew me in college, who knew how much I loved religious studies, they were like, thank God you did this. This is totally right for you. And so it was kind of clicked for them immediately. But he didn't really know that part of me. 

And then I went and was with him on vacation and with a lot of his business school friends over the break. Of course, all the business school people were really interested. Jamie, why the hell are you at Divinity School? And my friend Milo heard me live explain to people about my interests and about a lot of what this conversation has been today, which is where I come from, what I'm interested in and this idea of building a system of faith and the idea about surrendering to interest, and also about being able to exist in the world in a public capacity that helps inspire people toward more creative endeavors. 

I had a real wax. I also maybe had a beer at the time, so the words were coming a little bit more easily. And he said later on, to me, I never really understood this, and then when I saw you explain it to my friends, and I saw how excited and engaged they were to speak to you about what was on their mind and how they had these particular interests, and—because this happens to Divinity School people, is you wind-up getting into really serious and deep conversations. It's one of the hazards of going,if— 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

HIATT O'CONNOR: A blessing and a hazard. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: If you don't want to talk about religion with someone you just met, then maybe think twice. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

But if you're open to having really incredible conversations—Anyway, my friend gave me a big hug and was like, dude, wow. It was great to hear you articulate yourself like that. And I'm so excited to see and be in your life as you go through this process and see how you develop as a young man and a young professional. So it was pretty cool. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It was a poignant moment. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It was. Yeah, it was really touching, actually. He's someone I always try to—yeah, I talk to him a lot. He's one of my best friends. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: You could say friendship, maybe is another pillar? Put a third one up. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, yeah. Friendship too. Friendship, faith. Friendship, family. I mean, that feels so generic reason or-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It seems generic, but I mean, it is a commonality between a lot of people that I've spoken to one on the podcast, but two just generally and for myself. Family and friends and something that you're passionate about and trust your life to are common pillars of everyone leading a fulfilling life. I don't want to make huge projections there, but it seems common enough to say it with some comfort. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And I think one of the things that's sad that I've noticed is that if you ask people who or what they believe in. A lot of people get that look in their eyes like, oh crap, I should really have an answer to this. And they kind of zone out. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It's an unusual question for folks to get. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: What do you believe in? It's maybe a little annoying. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: I think if you asked me what I believed in, and I've been here for three years, so I've fielded this question a couple times. I think I would also get the thousand yard stare. It depends on who I'm speaking to. What have we been speaking about? How well do I know you? How well do you know me? 

What context are we in? Are we in a Buddhist studies class? Have we just come out of a Sangha group? Did I just meet you out of your preaching class? Or have I been reading a lot of Wittgenstein recently? And for some folks, belief in something is not high-on-the-hit parade, as it were. 

And also it might be there for them, but maybe they just haven't articulated it in a way where they could answer it. Or have even thought about it in a way where belief is in there. To use your words, "spiritual lexicon" or "lexicon." Period. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah. Maybe I should stop asking people that question 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

Because people will ask me, you're at Divinity School, what do you believe in? And I'll be like, what do you believe in? 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It's a quick little turnaround. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: But also, I'll be honest. I'll say, I'm working on developing a system of belief that feels authentic and compatible with how I live my life and how I want to live my life. I guess I'll just say that I feel really thankful to be here, because it's giving me the chance to grow into a more morally attuned and intentional person. 

And if you had asked me a year ago whether I would be saying a sentence like that on the record, I was just like, I think there's been an experience here that has been really fulfilling in that I feel affected. This place has changed me in a way that makes me feel more authentically myself. And that with the caveat that does the authentic self exist? Can we ever know thee self? Who am I? What is me? 

HIATT O'CONNOR: But nevertheless, it's a functioning category of how we go about things. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: But also a directional feeling that I'm moving in the right way and feel like at least I'm working on those serious questions and feel like I'm getting some traction. So these are all the nice things, really. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Well, and it's really nice because it ties well into what you were mentioning earlier about having that conversation with your friends' friends. Is this intentionality and this the affirmational effect that this work can have on us is transitive. It's a hazard if I go home for a thanksgiving and my in-laws' partner's cousin is there and had heard I went to Divinity School and keeps asking me questions about Christian nationalism, which is not what I study, but it's just on their mind. 

And then the conversation can eventually go into them just having someone to articulate something to that has been present inside of them that they really haven't had the space to do so with. And we are fortunate enough to be fish in water when it comes to that. Where other people maybe don't have the opportunity or the impulse. And it can be very affirmational and transformative just to have those small conversations with people. It can also be burdensome if I just want to eat my turkey and watch the Cowboys win again. But I'm not a Cowboys fan, for the record, but they seem to always win on Thanksgiving. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It's great. I do love it. It is, especially, because I'm not a person who will hold back if someone asks me what I think about something. Yeah, I'll tell them, which maybe I should stop doing because there's so many. Because I'm only qualified to speak on maybe-- honestly, maybe nothing quite yet, but-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: I'm not very qualified on much either. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It is. It is great to see how this work brings out in other people real, genuine curiosity. Because it's something-- everyone knows a little bit about religion. Everyone knows a little bit about spirituality and philosophy. Everyone, because you took what you had to and you couldn't get out of high school without. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: And also just being a human in the world. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: A human in the world, right. It's like everyone knows a little something. And I think everyone has a curiosity about it, too. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Absolutely, yeah. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And so it's one of-- it's funny, before I got here, I wrote some-- it's in that folder where you keep all the things you've wrote but haven't finished. I have something in there on this, which is basically starts. That's the funny thing about going to Divinity School is that everyone asks you questions about things you have no idea about. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

Which is great, though, because then-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It's a stimulating effect for sure. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: People are curious. I was hanging out with my friend and all of his business school friends, and I was like the person that people wanted to talk to. Because being a school student, there's the effect of people just want to talk to you. Y 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It's not the most usual degree program, especially from where you were. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It's pretty unusual. I think I'm probably the-- besides my friends at Divinity School, I think I'm the only person I who's at Divinity School, 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Me too. Well, no, that's not true. I went to college with somebody who ended up going to the University of Chicago. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Well, to be fair, my friend from Pomona, the reason I came here is because I talked to Renee, who's great and who I will get coffee with. I just need to text you back. Sorry, Renee, I will. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

But, yeah, she helped me figure out that I wanted to do this, so. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Wonderful. Thank you for all of that. I think, like said before, a lot of people will relate to a lot of what you said. But I'm looking at the time, so I'm going to have to pivot a little bit. And I think what you were saying earlier about this being so affirmational, it touches on, I think, the next question, but do you have any insights or practices from, it could be a religious tradition, but it could not be insights or practices that give you hope? Or are you even a hopeful person? Do you have hope and do things like-- Yeah, anyway. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, this is definitely the hardest thing for me to answer because I have a pretty complicated relationship with hope. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Me too. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: I'm someone who suffers from a little volatility. So on Tuesday this week I had a great day. I was booked wall to wall from 6:30 in the morning until 8:30 at night. And that's the type of day. And I was with a lot of people. It gave me a ton of energy and my head hit the pillow. I was so tired at 9:30. 

And I was like, wow, what an amazing day. I'm going to have the best week and I'm going to get and I'm applying for internships right now. I'm going to get the best internship. And yada, yada yada. And then Wednesday came around and I didn't feel that same momentum and energy. And that's something I'm working on. Just generally in life keeping a more even keel and therefore more tempered hopefulness. So I'm working on it. 

But I think in general, again, I mentioned critical theory earlier. I come from a-- I think things will always get better. Will get better because they always do. And they will get worse because they always do. But still I'm hopeful that things will get better. I'm aware that things will get worse. I try to have maybe a middle path outlook. Like on my best days, I have a tempered, sober feeling about the world. 

And I think as someone who has faith in humanity, generally. I do believe that common sense and people do feel and experience the same thing. I think we all have equal purchase on being a human. So I have that feeling that can make me be hopeful, but I don't have necessarily a practice or a way to cultivate hope in myself or hope in the world. I think the world is a really-- it's tough to look out into the world and be like, oh yeah, things are things are going to be great. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yes. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And then you also have to remember that the way that we see the world is not through a hopeful lens. Breaking news is not a litter of puppies born in Akron, Ohio, donated to newly housed. That's not a headline. It should be. It'd be great, but the headlines usually are-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: What they are. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Usually are bad. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah, they are what they are. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Are the most evocative and upsetting things that keep you engaged. So I think holding the bad with the good. I try to keep a good outlook. I think most, if I want to be really like-- Here's a funny answer, I love finding new music. So Apple Music has, which I know, I'm not Spotify, but Apple music has a great infinity play. Where I can just put on a song I like and then it will play like a bunch of songs like it. 

And I love discovering new music that way, and that gives me hope. The fact that there is more new music for me to discover and listen to and expand my mind with, that gives me hope. So on the most practical level, Apple Music infinity plays. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Thank you, Apple Music infinity play. Not a sponsor of the podcast. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah that's my cheesy answer. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It's not very cheesy because I feel similarly. I think one of the more wonderful things that humans do is make music. And one of the more wonderful things about humans that we share with so many other parts of the world is that we are musical. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: What do you mean? 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Our language is musical. We make music. Bach used to exist. I mean, MJ Lindemann still plays music. People are out making music now, even though the headlines are as horrible as they are, and things will get worse and things will get better, and so on and so forth. But people gather and they sing together and other people listen. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It makes me think that I should, and I've been thinking about this the last-- So specific practices. The only practice I have right now, if you could call it that, is just exercising. That does wonders. I've been thinking recently that I ought to pick up the guitar or drums. I can't tell, but I want to get. I want to start lessons because I like working with my hands and I don't get that a lot. I do a lot of typing. And-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It would help diffuse the mind. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: I think that's a practice besides Apple Music infinity play. I think I'd like to start taking musical lessons and I think I can do that through Harvard. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: I'm not sure, but I'm almost positive you could. It's a large university with a lot of resources. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: 

You have to think that there's someone around here who could teach me how to play guitar. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: And if they're not affiliated with Harvard, there are certainly places in Cambridge and Somerville and Medford where there's tons of people. There's bluegrass scenes and jazz scenes and punk scenes and so on, 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah, I mean, I'm in Central Square. There's a ton of-- big punk scene. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: You're golden. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It's actually like-- I feel like a bit of a Fisher. My apartment is right across from the Middle East. Which has-- so Thursday night o'clock, there's usually pretty big punk concerts. So it's like me, a collared shirt and pea coat with my backpack on, listening to Apple Music infinity play, walking past like 150 Goths decked out in all black. And it's like head banging music coming out. And it's actually pretty. It's pretty fun, actually. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Yeah, it sounds lovely, actually. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: I feel a bit out of place, but it's pretty fun though. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: You're a fish out of water, but nevertheless, we're all in the same water. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: But my apartment's right there. [JAMIE LAUGHS] 

HIATT O'CONNOR: You're very good at setting up segues for me. Thank you. Do you have a podcast, a book, a movie, a poem, maybe some music that you would recommend to our listeners? 

JAMIE FEINBERG: I recently read a book called The history of love by Nicole Krauss. It's a blue cover. I think I already recommended this to you, Hiatt. It was-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: I think you might have-- 

JAMIE FEINBERG: I'm recommending it to everyone right now because it's just so, just so gosh darn good. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] It's really so good. Oh my God. I read it in literally two sittings and I couldn't put it down. And it was incredible. And if you-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: It's a novel,right? 

JAMIE FEINBERG: It's like a novel about a novel, about a writer who wrote a novel and lost a novel, and someone who's trying to find the person who wrote the novel that they were named for. It's very layered and it's so well written and it's really beautiful, and I love it, and I think everyone should read it. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: OK, I will. And I hope our listeners will too. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: I'll bring you a copy. There's two people who I need to bring books for and I'll bring you History of Love. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Thank you. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: And I'll bring-- There's someone who I told them to read this book called Someone Who Will Love You in All Your Damaged Glory, which is-- 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Great title. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Great title. It's got also a picture of an egg with-- a cracked egg with a piece of tape on it. It's just it's a great book cover, great title. And it's like 200 pages of short stories that are-- I don't know, [INAUDIBLE] and I are in a writing group together. And a lot of the stuff that I write for that group is like adjacently, inspired by the person who is writing dark comedy, philosophical essays, personal essays, and just so good. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Thank you so much for coming by, man. This has really been a fantastic conversation. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: This has been fun. This is the first time I've ever recorded a podcast. Maybe I'll do this in the future. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: Start of a trend, I think. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Maybe I should become a pod caster. 

[HIATT LAUGHS] 

HIATT O'CONNOR: You and everybody else, myself included. 

JAMIE FEINBERG: Yeah. 

HIATT O'CONNOR: All right. Thanks for coming by. Thank you, everybody, for listening. All right, that's it. Toodaloo take care. 

[BIRDS CHIRPING]